Sheiko Training Forum

[erictalmant]

Hey Guys. Here is where we can discuss all things Sheiko related.

If you want to check out the St. Louis "Sheiko" Powerlifting Seminar on DVD you can go to:

bmfsports.net/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=82&tracking=plwatch

[erictalmant]

My coach Dave Bates will be the main one on the forum and he will start posting some time today I expect.

Please feel free to submit any and all questions related to Sheiko training so that we can all discuss here in one centralized location.

[Deleted]

Hey eric, I'm a 19 yo boy from Portugal doing Sheiko for 4 months.

I've one question, near the competition, last 10 weeks for exemple, can we switch de assistance for some pylometrics like jump squat, etc?

keep strong!

[davebates]

Greetings:
Why do you feel the need to add this to your program?

[joeldibattista]

Dave, Eric,

I've seen Eric mention on EFS that he has some additional rated lifter programmes to the ones posted on that site. Any chance you could put them up here or email them to me?

Cheers,
Joel

[davebates]

Hi Joel,
I want to keep it simple for now. I will be posting a basic program for equipment use next. Many folks are getting ahead of themselves when it's not necessary. I have found out with working with many, many folks that the13 week program that I have posted will build strength. Once it stops building strength is when we will need to make changes.

[benburgess]

Dec 11, 2008 0:35:02 GMT -5 joeldibattista said:

Dave, Eric,

I've seen Eric mention on EFS that he has some additional rated lifter programmes to the ones posted on that site. Any chance you could put them up here or email them to me?

Cheers,
Joel

Seconded. I would also find that really worthwhile.

Dec 11, 2008 0:35:02 GMT -5 @davidbates said:

Hi Joel,
I want to keep it simple for now. I will be posting a basic program for equipment use next. Many folks are getting ahead of themselves when it's not necessary. I have found out with working with many, many folks that the13 week program that I have posted will build strength. Once it stops building strength is when we will need to make changes.

David, what you and Eric do for lifters is beyond doubt and combined you have had a huge effect on many powerlifters training worldwide.

I think you're probably right, many people make too many alterations or make the cycles over complex. However you are always gonna have nobheads like me and Joel who are too inqusitive not to want to make their own mistakes.

Personally, I find that the ability to examine different # cycles and compare their volume, load etc. gives me an insight into how and why this kind of training works and makes you more able to program your own training.

Having said that I will be interested to see what your 'standard' equipped training cycle looks like and compare it with things I've had sucess and failure with.

[davebates]

It's the whole idea friend. I put the equipment cycle up today. Now when you guys make changes, let everybody know how it worked or if it did not work.
Thanks in advance....

[benburgess]

Dec 11, 2008 15:09:49 GMT -5 davebates said:

It's the whole idea friend.

So you would be interested in sharing some of the translated cycles that are not on EFS then?

Dec 11, 2008 15:09:49 GMT -5 davebates said:

I put the equipment cycle up today. Now when you guys make changes, let everybody know how it worked or if it did not work.
Thanks in advance....

Ok Dave I will start a thread giving my own subjective experiences of Sheiko with equipment, i'm sure Joel will have some interesting things to add too.

[benburgess]

Oh, ok...you cant start new threads?

Well here are my observations then (I've run Sheiko cycles for about a year and done 3 meets using prep and peaking cycles for rated lifters):

General
Personally, i've found the higher %'ages in cycles like the #30 and #31 lend themselves better to equipped lifting than the 70 and 75%'s found more in cycles like the #37. I am around 50kg from CMS so this could explain this, but its always going to be hard (for example) to get a touch with 70% of your shirted bench.

The SPP excersises are a good place to target your individual weak points. My knees used to come in when i squatted so i used a lot of ultra-wide GM's focussing on pushing knees out as my SPP. Now they dont come in.

Squat
I've found that if you're lifting at 80-85%, putting your straps up means you get pretty much zero training effect as its too easy. Conversely trying to do 95% of your equipped max with straps down and no wraps will blow your brainz out. I've found a good rule of thumb to be:

80% - old suit, straps down + old wraps
85% - same, maybe tighter wraps
90% - old suit, straps up + old wraps
95%+ - full battle rattle

This is pretty much exactly what Big Boris says in one of his translated letters/emails too.

You get most support out of your suit if you can sit back into it. Box squats help you do this so I've always included them in the cycles, as a raw movement. I think this has helped get my glutes strong and are one of the reasons why the squat is my best (equipped) lift.

Bench
David I was very surprised to see that both you and Boris base most of your benching off full ROM raw bench %'ages. It is certainly the experience of my team (which contains an IPF world champ, and a number of British champs) that you HAVE to work the lockout hard with boards, pin lockouts etc.

After I recently read the email that Boris wrote that confirmed that he has his lifters doing mostly raw bench, I tried running prep and comp cycles where I benched twice full-ROM raw, and once full-ROM shirted in a week. My shirted bench went down, althought my raw bench went up.

I think the new generation single ply (eg. Katana) is so powerful that what you can move off the chest (where the shirt helps) is always going to be more than you can lock out (where the shirt doesnt help) unless you have specifically trained the triceps/lockout HARD.

Its difficult to program boards and lockouts etc. in Sheiko, because they dont lend themselves well to 75 and 80%. You have to be using 90+% of your shirted max for a pin lockout to have any training effect i think. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on programming these types of movement David.

Deadlift
I have a bad sticking point around the knee. Doing pulls to knee raw does not seem to help me to pull my suited max over my knees, same with the pulls from blocks.

I've found pulls to knees based off suited max and pulls off blocks based off suited max works best, although i still gotta defeat this sticking point. I pull sumo.

[davebates]

Hi Ben,
First and foremost thank you for the feedback!
It's what this forum is all about.
I'm not sure about the whole thread thing. This is all new to me.
I have no problem sharing other programs with you just email me on what your looking for. I have some programs that go 6 days a week with training twice a day. These are for a MSIC
It has been my experience with lifters, that if we ease them into basic programs they are more likely to complete the program. The 13 week equipment program is a starting point for people who have decided to try to use equipment in a meet. As you know, equipment lifting is a whole different world. The idea is to have the lifter work in their equipment at 70% and above. The 70% lifts and above would be based off of their equipped max not their raw max. Most lifters use their equipment one day a week. Most guys have training equipment and tighter meet equipment. Some guys use their equipment every session it depends on the lifter.
I think the board work can be worked into the program pretty easily. It depends on the lifters ability to recover. Everyone is different.
This 13 week program (equipped) is only a starting point, for some lifters it will build their strength for others it may not.
For the lifter, that it does not build their strength, what do we change so they will have success to?
-Dave

[spsfw]

Great forum. Thanks Dave for all your help. Can you put up some of the 4 and 5 week cycles and some info on what/who they are suited for?- this would be very useful for those who don't have 13 weeks till a meet.

[benburgess]

Dec 12, 2008 14:21:59 GMT -5 davebates said:

Hi Ben,
First and foremost thank you for the feedback!
It's what this forum is all about.

No problem mate, I hope some others will join in with their experiences too...we're all learning constantly, right? I'm not the strongest or cleverest guy in the world but i do pay close attention to how my programming affects my meet results!

I'm not sure about the whole thread thing. This is all new to me.

On most forums any user can create a new thread. My guess is that here only moderators can create new threads. This will keep the overall board neat but it might mean that individual threads get very long with people adding things in existing threads rather than creating new ones for each new question. Its good to have you participating in such a resource either way Dave.

I have no problem sharing other programs with you just email me on what your looking for. I have some programs that go 6 days a week with training twice a day. These are for a MSIC

I'll email you about that then. I was an MSIC last night, then I woke up and it was all a dream! Im just a rated lifter nearing CMS.

It has been my experience with lifters, that if we ease them into basic programs they are more likely to complete the program. The 13 week equipment program is a starting point for people who have decided to try to use equipment in a meet. As you know, equipment lifting is a whole different world. The idea is to have the lifter work in their equipment at 70% and above. The 70% lifts and above would be based off of their equipped max not their raw max. Most lifters use their equipment one day a week. Most guys have training equipment and tighter meet equipment. Some guys use their equipment every session it depends on the lifter.

I agree, im sure the 13wk program would work great.

I think the board work can be worked into the program pretty easily. It depends on the lifters ability to recover. Everyone is different.

I think a good balance is one shirt day, one board day and one full rom raw day (this is assuming 3 day/wk training).

With regards to the post by spsfw above, between me and Joel we have a few of the 4 and 5 wk cycles in quite neat excel speadsheets that round the weights etc. If you would like us to send them so you can share them on the forum just let us know, id say we have:
*37
*37 modified (more bench intensity)
*29
*30
*31
*32
*5 Week Comp Cycle

[davebates]

Hey Ben,
I think for now it would be best for anyone that wants to use the other programs to contact you guys directly. I feel it would be best to keep things simple for now. When we jumped the gun and posted a bunch of different programs last time, it cause mass confusion.

Greetings Spsfw,
Lets use this forum so we can show everyone who does not have 13 weeks how to put things together.
Give me a example of what you have in mind. Keep in mind 13 weeks is ideal. you can go as little as 8 weeks and perhaps build some strength.
So how much time do you have?
Have you done this type of program before?
Are you using equipment?
Then I will tell you what I think will work and perhaps other lifters will give their input as well.
-Dave

[spsfw]

Dec 13, 2008 13:01:23 GMT -5 davebates said:

Greetings Spsfw,
Lets use this forum so we can show everyone who does not have 13 weeks how to put things together.
Give me a example of what you have in mind. Keep in mind 13 weeks is ideal. you can go as little as 8 weeks and perhaps build some strength.
So how much time do you have?
Have you done this type of program before?
Are you using equipment?
Then I will tell you what I think will work and perhaps other lifters will give their input as well.
-Dave

I have done 9 weeks unequipped and 9 weeks equipped so far (both being a conditioning week, plus a 4 week prep cycle and a 4 week comp one). Basically where I am coming from is this- I know 37 and 32 work together as a moderate intensity combination for 8weeks and 30 and 31 work as prep cycles with greater intensity. So- basically on elite we have 29, 30, 31 and 37 all as 4 week prep cycles- and 32 as a comp cycle. I'm interested in the combinations and what effect they have a who they are suited to. This is why I aske the question about have a variety of programs available with a sense of how they relate to lifter rating etc. I'm not trying to make things overly complicated- and I totally appreciate and understand what you are doing here. My scenario is that I have 16 weeks- but I was hoping to go for 4 unequipped then test my raw lifts, then do an 8 week block equipped to take me to my meet. I have done 37 and 32 as a combination- this was great. I am about to start 29 and was just looking for info to help me through the two 8 week blocks in the optimal way. I know equipped ups the intensity, so I feel like 30 and 31 may not be appropriate. At this stage I'm leaning toward 29 plus 32 raw, then 37 and 32 equipped. As far as my rating goes- I am right on MS raw.

[spsfw]

Dec 12, 2008 12:38:50 GMT -5 benburgess said:

General
Personally, i've found the higher %'ages in cycles like the #30 and #31 lend themselves better to equipped lifting than the 70 and 75%'s found more in cycles like the #37.

This is precisely the kind of info i was after- thanks. See I was thinking that the extra intensity you get from equipped lifting would make these a little too much. But what you are saying totally makes sense.

The SPP excersises are a good place to target your individual weak points. My knees used to come in when i squatted so i used a lot of ultra-wide GM's focussing on pushing knees out as my SPP. Now they dont come in.

Is the general rule- don't add things, but you can substitute bench SPP for another SPP and so forth?


Squat
I've found that if you're lifting at 80-85%, putting your straps up means you get pretty much zero training effect as its too easy. Conversely trying to do 95% of your equipped max with straps down and no wraps will blow your brainz out. I've found a good rule of thumb to be:

80% - old suit, straps down + old wraps
85% - same, maybe tighter wraps
90% - old suit, straps up + old wraps
95%+ - full battle rattle

I hear what you are saying- however I still find I am getting plenty from 5 or 6 sets of triples at 80 or 85 with straps up. My main concern is that with this approach with 32, for eg, you pretty much only get 3-4 squats in with your straps up for the whole cycle. I feel like learning the full equipped groove is such an important part of what makes this work.

This is pretty much exactly what Big Boris says in one of his translated letters/emails too.

You get most support out of your suit if you can sit back into it. Box squats help you do this so I've always included them in the cycles, as a raw movement. I think this has helped get my glutes strong and are one of the reasons why the squat is my best (equipped) lift.

Do you use your box squat in the place of the second squat in a session- how do you adjust the %?

Bench
David I was very surprised to see that both you and Boris base most of your benching off full ROM raw bench %'ages. It is certainly the experience of my team (which contains an IPF world champ, and a number of British champs) that you HAVE to work the lockout hard with boards, pin lockouts etc.

After I recently read the email that Boris wrote that confirmed that he has his lifters doing mostly raw bench, I tried running prep and comp cycles where I benched twice full-ROM raw, and once full-ROM shirted in a week. My shirted bench went down, althought my raw bench went up.

I think the new generation single ply (eg. Katana) is so powerful that what you can move off the chest (where the shirt helps) is always going to be more than you can lock out (where the shirt doesnt help) unless you have specifically trained the triceps/lockout HARD.

Its difficult to program boards and lockouts etc. in Sheiko, because they dont lend themselves well to 75 and 80%. You have to be using 90+% of your shirted max for a pin lockout to have any training effect i think. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on programming these types of movement David.
I did 37 and 32 in a shirt- with 2 shirts- one loose and the other tight. I thought it was going well until it came time to do skills evaluation and change to comp shirt. Here I realised that while lifting in a loose shirt seems to help strength development and conditioning- it is so different from a tight shirt that it made it very difficult to get things right in the one session I had in the comp shirt. This is the dilemma isn't it? A comp shirt takes so much weight (in terms of %) to touch that its hard to find a way to work it into a cycle.

[joeldibattista]

sp, that's definitely an issue. You went into that last comp without actually touching any weights in that shirt right? That would do my head in! Benching wise, I've found doing shirt work on Day 1, raw pyramid on Day 2 and benching with chains on Day 3 to work well for my equipped bench. Seems to be what Wade Hooper does looking at his videos.

As far as squatting in gear, I've always squatted in only suit bottoms up to 70%, then added wraps for 80%, then straps up for anything >80%. As Ben has mentioned, you don't get much time with the staps up though if you do 29 and 37 etc.

Before my last comp I did the 5 week rated lifter comp cycle and put my straps up for everything 80% and over, so I got quite a bit of work with the straps up. I think next time I might even try doing both squat sessions of the comp cycle in gear - effectively doubling the amount of time in gear.

[spsfw]

Dec 13, 2008 22:15:02 GMT -5 joeldibattista said:

sp, that's definitely an issue. You went into that last comp without actually touching any weights in that shirt right?

yeah- no touch prior to the comp- it did my head in.

As far as squatting in gear, I've always squatted in only suit bottoms up to 70%, then added wraps for 80%, then straps up for anything >80%. As Ben has mentioned, you don't get much time with the staps up though if you do 29 and 37 etc.

have you done 30 or 31 equipped? I am wondering now how it would go. I find squatting in equipment a lot less taxing than raw- but the opposite with benching.

Before my last comp I did the 5 week rated lifter comp cycle and put my straps up for everything 80% and over, so I got quite a bit of work with the straps up. I think next time I might even try doing both squat sessions of the comp cycle in gear - effectively doubling the amount of time in gear.

How did the 5 week comp cycle compare to 32 in terms of intensity?

[joeldibattista]

sp, the intensity is similar to 32, but the volume is much lower, which I feel I do better from.

The first comp I did, I did the 5 week comp cycle leading up to it, the second comp I did 32, and the last comp I did the 5 week comp again. I definitely feel better with the reduction in volume come meet day.

www.elitefts.com/sheiko/5_week_comp_cycle.htm

Eric or Dave:- I've seen Eric wirte that 29>32 is for lifters closer to a MS rating, is the 5 week comp cycle above for weaker lifters? If so, that may be why I did better off it, as I'm quite a way off MS rating.

[davebates]

Actually we found out later that 29-32 are designed to work together but it really beats you down. We did not fully understand this until after it was posted and we started getting feedback. #29 seems to place more emphasis on building the deadlift, you can not go into #32 expecting to make gains for some reason this has not worked very well. #37 is a more balanced program (for lack of a better term). You can do #32 after #37 and expect to have some success. The last 8 weeks of the programs I have put up are #37 (but the bench intensity has been increased a tic) and #32, used for peaking for a contest. The first 4 weeks are a reduction in volume of #37 to help lifters get used to the volume of #37.

A combination that has worked fairly well for some lifters without equipment is #29, #37 and #32. Most guys tell me 16 weeks is too much 12 weeks with a conditioning week is about right. Since we have 16 weeks I think what I would do is The first 5 weeks of the unequipped cycle (1 wk conditioning + the first 4 weeks ) Then I would pick up the equipped cycle starting with week 2 and finish it until the meet
-Dave