Sheiko Training Forum

[davebates]

You guys are going to half to teach me how to do all this forum stuff. I'm not sure how to do the box things you guys do to answer questions.
The 5 week rated comp cycle is something I came up with for myself many years ago. Being a older lifter, I'm not able to recover as well as my younger counter parts. This served me well for a while until I got in better condition. I have not tested many lifters on the 5 week comp cycle using equipment. I always felt the 4 week one would be better. You guys will half to try it out and give me feedback on which one is better for lifters. For unequipped, I like the 4 week comp cycle ( #32 ) perhaps for the equipped it should be the 5 week rated lifter one?
Let me know...
-Dave

[Deleted]

From my experience thus far, and I am unequipped, I work better having a 4-6 week period of 75-80% average intensity and then 4 weeks where the volume drops, but the intensity is more around 85%. I think a lot of raw lifters need to getused to having heavier weights in addition to the volume building because that breeds confidence which breeds success. In looking at the 13 week program, I personally think it is too long before you get into higher intensity and I wouldn't have the confidence to work in the 90+% range even though I have built the strength for it. I think you have to practice your form with the higher weights to get used to the weight.

[joeldibattista]

Dec 14, 2008 4:05:41 GMT -5 davebates said:

You guys are going to half to teach me how to do all this forum stuff. I'm not sure how to do the box things you guys do to answer questions.

Dave, if you look at a post, there is an icon at the top right with "quote". If you press that, it will put the post into a quote and you can edit out anythign you don't want to quote and add your own comments.

[Deleted]

This forum is a great idea Eric....It will be great to share and discuss all things Sheiko in the one spot with lifters from all corners of the globe.

Dave thanks for all your help and guidence throughout the year, I'm really looking forward to getting into equipment in 09 and taking my lifting to the next level.

Cheers
J

[Deleted]

So far I have tried #29 then 32 for a comp and did a 40kg total pr equipped. Went thru the bench only cycle and hit a 10kg raw pr. I was thinking of following 29, 30, 31, 32 for my next comp. 29 and 30 raw, 31 and 32 equipped. I have heaps of questions about Sheiko training so I appreciate being able to ask such a knowledgable bunch of lifters. One more thing, I am rated MS for raw lifting in 125+ category.

[davebates]

Dec 15, 2008 0:01:17 GMT -5 @bigbear said:

So far I have tried #29 then 32 for a comp and did a 40kg total pr equipped. Went thru the bench only cycle and hit a 10kg raw pr. I was thinking of following 29, 30, 31, 32 for my next comp. 29 and 30 raw, 31 and 32 equipped. I have heaps of questions about Sheiko training so I appreciate being able to ask such a knowledgable bunch of lifters. One more thing, I am rated MS for raw lifting in 125+ category.

Welcome Big,
Feel free to ask as many questions as you want to. We are starting to get a great group of lifters here with plenty of experience and willing to give you the information you need to reach your goals. It's good you had some success with #29 followed by #32. My only concern with doing a program like 29-32 is the volume. Sure you can make it through, but, do you really need that amount of work to start?
29-32 is a brutal cycle. #30 is the one that can question your will,1257 reps done over 4 weeks lifting 3 days a week. The program i put up here is a good compromise for lifters to start out with or guys that are new to this kind of training. If you decide to do 29-32 as you described, please let us know how it's going for you. The lifters here are more than willing to give feedback on what they think will help you reach your lifting goals.
-Dave

[benburgess]

Dec 13, 2008 18:53:42 GMT -5 spsfw said:

Is the general rule- don't add things, but you can substitute bench SPP for another SPP and so forth?

Dave might be better placed to answer this. I know there is a list of SPP excersises in Sheiko's book. I would guess that picking the movements from this list that best hit your weaknesses is the way forward.

I hear what you are saying- however I still find I am getting plenty from 5 or 6 sets of triples at 80 or 85 with straps up. My main concern is that with this approach with 32, for eg, you pretty much only get 3-4 squats in with your straps up for the whole cycle. I feel like learning the full equipped groove is such an important part of what makes this work.

The issue with Sheiko and gear very much depends on this aspect - how comforatble/good you are in your gear.

Do you use your box squat in the place of the second squat in a session- how do you adjust the %?

I have used it as both a primary and secondary squat movement but never eliminated full raw squats. In an equipped cycle i will do box sqs, raw sqs AND eqp sqs. I wouldnt adjust the %'age at all, just base it off your max box sq instead of your max raw sq. For me theres only about 10kg difference anyway.

[benburgess]

Dec 14, 2008 3:52:22 GMT -5 davebates said:

Actually we found out later that 29-32 are designed to work together but it really beats you down.

#37 is a more balanced program (for lack of a better term). You can do #32 after #37 and expect to have some success.

A combination that has worked fairly well for some lifters without equipment is #29, #37 and #32.

The 5 week rated comp cycle is something I came up with for myself many years ago. Being a older lifter, I'm not able to recover as well as my younger counter parts. This served me well for a while until I got in better condition. I have not tested many lifters on the 5 week comp cycle using equipment. I always felt the 4 week one would be better. You guys will half to try it out and give me feedback on which one is better for lifters. For unequipped, I like the 4 week comp cycle ( #32 ) perhaps for the equipped it should be the 5 week rated lifter one?
Let me know...

This is some gold information this is. My comments would be these:

Personally, I would feel a bit uneasy going into the #32 from the #37 equipped because of the lack of high %'age work at the end of the #37...going from 75 and 80% of your equipped sq max right into 100% the bar is gonna feel like a shit-ton on your back. Maybe thats just me.

Its true though that #30 and #31 are tough cycles, i think 31 is the toughest ive ever run. I have run #29-->#31-->#32 and had a pretty good meet off it but my work capacity and recovery is pretty bullit, and I often feel like i could do more volume in the gym.

I was surprised at how hard work the #32 was for a peaking/deloading cycle, its actually a pretty tough cycle in the 2nd week. However when I ran the 5 Week Comp cycle equipped I felt a bit under-trained come meet time and I felt just right after the #32 so for me the #32 was better, but I know Joel feels better off the 5 Wk Comp. Again I think this probably has something to do with my work capacity.

Dave you will maybe agree that the Sheiko cycles generally are very much affected by work and recovery capacity? In fact my 1st few (2 or 3) 4 wk cycles I got little gains from at all because the volume was such a shock to my body but the cycles seem to work better for you as your work capacity improves.

[spsfw]

That being the case- what would you think of the following combination:
37 raw then 29, 30 and 32 equipped? I also feel that the % in 37 & 32 are too low for me for bench. I used a loose shirt- but loose enough to touch 70% is so loose that it has almost no relationship to a comp shirt in terms of technical preparation.

[Deleted]

I'm currently 2 weeks into a 14 week bench only cycle (RAW) and 8 weeks out from the first comp in 09 at which I would like to use a squat suit and knee wraps at (for the first time), which essentially means that I need to work out my equipped squat 1RM and become more efficient in the equipment between now and then.

What I have been toying with is cutting the bench cycle down to four weeks, then running an eval week to identify my new RAW bench PR, along with an equipped squat 1RM. Then from there do weeks 5 - 9 of a "united" 13 week equipped and unequipped program, using the equipped figures for the squat and unequipped figures for bench and dead, and using the skills eval numbers in place of the meet numbers (confused yet) at the meet...

I understand that this is not ideal however given the short timeframe and the fact that I am looking to introduce ONLY one piece of equipment per comp for the next three comps (so I am not overloaded with learning equipment) this is the only feasible schedule that I can come up with ATM.

If anyone else has any ideas on the best approach please feel free to chime in.

[spsfw]

My training partner did her first comp recently- she had never tested her equipped max before. She went very conservatively and just added 10% for the equipped lifts in training- however I think you could go as high as 15%.

[Deleted]

Dec 15, 2008 23:43:57 GMT -5 spsfw said:

My training partner did her first comp recently- she had never tested her equipped max before. She went very conservatively and just added 10% for the equipped lifts in training- however I think you could go as high as 15%.

Thanks SP, as always valuable info...

Perhaps a better option for me would be to drop the bench only cycle at the end of this week then start on the last 8 weeks of the 13 week equipped cycle, which from what DaveB has said is a combination of 37(with an emphasis on bench) and 32, substituting the raw %'s in from the unequipped cycle and adding 15% to my squat for my equipped 1RM

I think this would be more beneficial than throwing together a discombobulated program of my own.

[davebates]

Dec 13, 2008 23:18:49 GMT -5 spsfw said:

Dec 13, 2008 22:15:02 GMT -5 joeldibattista said:

sp, that's definitely an issue. You went into that last comp without actually touching any weights in that shirt right?

yeah- no touch prior to the comp- it did my head in.

As far as squatting in gear, I've always squatted in only suit bottoms up to 70%, then added wraps for 80%, then straps up for anything >80%. As Ben has mentioned, you don't get much time with the staps up though if you do 29 and 37 etc.

have you done 30 or 31 equipped? I am wondering now how it would go. I find squatting in equipment a lot less taxing than raw- but the opposite with benching.

Before my last comp I did the 5 week rated lifter comp cycle and put my straps up for everything 80% and over, so I got quite a bit of work with the straps up. I think next time I might even try doing both squat sessions of the comp cycle in gear - effectively doubling the amount of time in gear.

How did the 5 week comp cycle compare to 32 in terms of intensity?

Here is some numbers for you guys on those 2 comp cycles.
#32- 4 weeks, 532 reps total. avg intensity 68.32%
5 wk comp cycle 492 reps total. avg intensity 68.50%
What do you guys think about the 4 week cycle for the raw guys and the 5 week for the equipment guys?
Anybody up for trying it and letting everybody know?

[davebates]

Dec 15, 2008 14:32:20 GMT -5 benburgess said:

Dec 13, 2008 18:53:42 GMT -5 spsfw said:

Is the general rule- don't add things, but you can substitute bench SPP for another SPP and so forth?

I agree with Ben here, more is not better

Dave might be better placed to answer this. I know there is a list of SPP excersises in Sheiko's book. I would guess that picking the movements from this list that best hit your weaknesses is the way forward.

Actually, Eric would be the best person for this. I can say for sure it's worth a try if the current SPP stuff is not working. Be careful what you change and only change one thing at a time, because if you are successful, you need to know what worked for you.

I hear what you are saying- however I still find I am getting plenty from 5 or 6 sets of triples at 80 or 85 with straps up. My main concern is that with this approach with 32, for eg, you pretty much only get 3-4 squats in with your straps up for the whole cycle. I feel like learning the full equipped groove is such an important part of what makes this work.

This is why the program is 13 weeks, it's plenty of time to learn your equipment. Keep in mind, the last 4 weeks are for peaking in a meet. you will be fine, if you have done the work up to this point. I think you will be surprised.

The issue with Sheiko and gear very much depends on this aspect - how comforatble/good you are in your gear.

Do you use your box squat in the place of the second squat in a session- how do you adjust the %?

Ben is Correct keep the % the same as written

I have used it as both a primary and secondary squat movement but never eliminated full raw squats. In an equipped cycle i will do box sqs, raw sqs AND eqp sqs. I wouldnt adjust the %'age at all, just base it off your max box sq instead of your max raw sq. For me theres only about 10kg difference anyway.

[benburgess]

Dec 15, 2008 18:17:13 GMT -5 spsfw said:

That being the case- what would you think of the following combination:
37 raw then 29, 30 and 32 equipped? I also feel that the % in 37 & 32 are too low for me for bench. I used a loose shirt- but loose enough to touch 70% is so loose that it has almost no relationship to a comp shirt in terms of technical preparation.

As far as it goes I rate it...I like the squat and bench reps at 90% in the #30 because it gives you a) a feel of the weight on the back for squat and b) its a weight you can touch in your shirt. Because they're for 3 singles, you're not blowing your brainz out with volume at high %'ages too.

Thing is, arn't you an MS? If i was as strong as that i'd be running the cycles for higher rated lifters i suppose.

[davebates]

Dec 18, 2008 16:56:54 GMT -5 benburgess said:

Dec 15, 2008 18:17:13 GMT -5 spsfw said:

That being the case- what would you think of the following combination:
37 raw then 29, 30 and 32 equipped? I also feel that the % in 37 & 32 are too low for me for bench. I used a loose shirt- but loose enough to touch 70% is so loose that it has almost no relationship to a comp shirt in terms of technical preparation.

As far as it goes I rate it...I like the squat and bench reps at 90% in the #30 because it gives you a) a feel of the weight on the back for squat and b) its a weight you can touch in your shirt. Because they're for 3 singles, you're not blowing your brainz out with volume at high %'ages too.

Thing is, arn't you an MS? If i was as strong as that i'd be running the cycles for higher rated lifters i suppose.

Keep in mind, even if you are a higher classification lifter, it does not mean your body is in condition to handle more work. Some of the higher classification lifters I have worked with end up getting hurt because of the amount of work. This is why I feel everybody new to this type of training should start out with the 13 week program.

[erictalmant]

Dec 18, 2008 17:43:11 GMT -5 davebates said:

Dec 18, 2008 16:56:54 GMT -5 benburgess said:

As far as it goes I rate it...I like the squat and bench reps at 90% in the #30 because it gives you a) a feel of the weight on the back for squat and b) its a weight you can touch in your shirt. Because they're for 3 singles, you're not blowing your brainz out with volume at high %'ages too.

Thing is, arn't you an MS? If i was as strong as that i'd be running the cycles for higher rated lifters i suppose.

Keep in mind, even if you are a higher classification lifter, it does not mean your body is in condition to handle more work. Some of the higher classification lifters I have worked with end up getting hurt because of the amount of work. This is why I feel everybody new to this type of training should start out with the 13 week program.

Dave is right on the money here. Conditioning is the key and this is where GPP and SPP make ALL THE DIFFERENCE.

I take probably 60 minutes and explain all of this on the St. Louis seminar DVD.

The thing is a gold mine as far as Sheiko training tips and explanations is concerned.

[Deleted]

So after much deliberation I've decided to drop the bench only cycle and run the last 8 weeks of the 13 week unequipped cycle, substitiuting equipped numbers (RAW max +15%) for the squat.

This will give me 7 sessions in the suit made up of 6 training session + 1 skills eval.

I do have a concern that there's only 1 session where my suited lift goes above 80% (except for the skills eval). What I've found in the past, when lifting RAW, is that when it comes to meet time and I put a weight up on my back that I've never done before the system gets a bit of a rude shock. So I am of the belief that (for me) some extra work is required on lifts above 85%.

[spsfw]

Its funny- I guess people are different- because for me on comp day I felt fresh and the weights were easy, whereas during the training the fatigue made the weights feel tough. In the comp I took 126.5lbs or 57.5kg more than any of my training weights (with the exception of the skills assessment) and the weight felt extremely easy (probably easier than 95% felt on skills assessment). For me, the training weights were perfect- and it felt like by the time you get to into the program the 5 or 6 sets of doubles or triples at 80% simulate the difficult and intensity of lifting over 100% That is how it seemed to me.

[davebates]

Dec 18, 2008 23:38:33 GMT -5 spsfw said:

Its funny- I guess people are different- because for me on comp day I felt fresh and the weights were easy, whereas during the training the fatigue made the weights feel tough. In the comp I took 126.5lbs or 57.5kg more than any of my training weights (with the exception of the skills assessment) and the weight felt extremely easy (probably easier than 95% felt on skills assessment). For me, the training weights were perfect- and it felt like by the time you get to into the program the 5 or 6 sets of doubles or triples at 80% simulate the difficult and intensity of lifting over 100% That is how it seemed to me.

Me too It's exactly how the program is designed to work. You half to believe the program will work. Many lifters have done this program with great success. I will be very interested to see how you do on the bench portion of the program we have come up with. It will be tough, But I think by the 4th week you should be doing ok.