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Post by benburgess on Jan 12, 2009 13:34:29 GMT -5
Based on my knowledge of the Soviet rating system from back in the 60's-80's, the first chart that was made for powerlifting that Sheiko references works well for raw lifting today. Take for example what it takes to be an MSIC in the 75K class (1520 total). To be an MSIC, that means that you are basically your country's national champion or at least second in your weight class and that you belong on a true national stage. In the United States, the only lifter that I know of right now that can do a raw total like that is Wade Hooper and maybe Tony Conyers. The chart does check out. Many want to take the easy way out and claim a rank that they really do not deserve and that is fine. If they want to do that then more power to them. In my experience, the first chart made in Russia works 100% perfectly well for the raw lifters of today. Eric Eric i couldnt agree more. The newer chart seems way too easy to be a CMS. Lets stick with the 75kg example. The 87 chart says CMS = 565 raw The new chart says CMS = 535 eqp Lets say an average single ply lifter gets ~130kg from using equipment, over their raw total. That would mean that 'modern CMS guy' is actually totalling ~ 400kg raw. Now 565 raw at 75 is a good total. I dont think it is, however, an unbelievable/unobtainable total with a bit of hard work. Maybe you could make an argument it is too high and needs dropping. But by 165kg?? 400kg is really what id think of as a beginner total really, something most 75 guys would acheive after a couple of years training and certainly not what i would expect a candidate to being a master of the sport to be doing. Just my opinion.
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Post by benburgess on Jan 10, 2009 19:30:10 GMT -5
If I were to do 6" lockouts or pin presses what percent of my shirted max should I use, should I stick with the 80-85% range or go a little higher since it is such a short range of motion thanks What I tried the other day (on the advice of someone on here, i think it was bigbear) was 6" lockouts using the %'ages prescribed for the bench work in the prep cycle, based on my shirted max. So it was 6 triples at 80% of my shirt max or something similar. I did them close grip and it seemed to be a pretty perfect training weight. The exact amount of ROM you should use would depend on your arm length eh?
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Post by benburgess on Jan 10, 2009 19:26:40 GMT -5
Is it possible to do a Sheiko program on about an 1 hour a day in the gym, three days a week? Thanks in advance, Matt To run a prep cycle, as written, I dont think so. Tomorrow morning I have to do a total of around 40 sets total across all movements (sq, bench and assistance). This i think is quite an average day. To get that work done in an hour.... (Working on a set taking 0.5mins to complete) Working time = 40 x 0.5 = 20mins Resting time = (60-20)/40 = 1 min per set That doesnt allow for loading the bar etc. either. I think to be working that quickly you'd have to be using %'ages that were based on weights that were well below your actual max. Whether you'd get any training effect from that who knows...
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Post by benburgess on Jan 9, 2009 12:09:33 GMT -5
Can someone tell me how to attach word documents to posts? A couple of people asked to see the routines. I can post them in the message box but you lose all the formatting and they are pretty much illegible.
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Post by benburgess on Jan 9, 2009 12:04:42 GMT -5
Yeah thats quite a difference...
As an example:
The chart on Elite says CMS is 607.5kg at 82.5kg bw raw.
The chart above says CMS is 565kg at 82.5kg bw equipped (presuming KMC = CMS).
Thats a huge difference. You would be hitting 565 equipped YEARS before you hit 607 raw!
I dont know which is correct, but 565@82 sounds low for a lifter who is a candidate for being a master of the sport!
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Post by benburgess on Jan 6, 2009 17:58:43 GMT -5
Dave,
In your opinion or experience does it matter where in the training session you do the GPP/SPP excersises? Tonight I had the following programmed:
Sq Bench Triceps Flyes (upper body GPP) Sq GM's (lower body developmental SPP)
What i DID, as I always do, was:
Sq Bench Triceps Sq Flyes GM's
I.e. I left the GPP/SPP stuff till the end. I just find this easier mentally...somehow its comforting to get all the heavy work sets out of the way 1st, then have the last 20 mins or so knocking out the lighter, higher rep stuff.
I never gave it a 2nd thought before tonight.
By the way I am running your modified #37 at the moment and i think you've done a great job altering the loading on it, the sets feel great. I recognise the day 2 bench pyramids they are from the #30 or #31, right? Just with the volume tapering off a little quicker on the way back down?
Thanks
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Post by benburgess on Jan 6, 2009 17:48:33 GMT -5
Another thing I find interesting is that although he's probably the strongest guy on the planet, even his third attempts that I've seen at World level are always text book perfect. I really feel Sheiko is the best method for mastering a compeition lift - and no wonder when you see the amount of times someone like Belyaev does them. Strongest Belayev or Olech...close call. IIRC Belayev has won best lifter most of the times they have competed in the same worlds, but then Olech did his best ever total, in fact ANYONES best ever total this year, when Belayev wasnt there. Defo agree on 2nd point.
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Post by benburgess on Jan 5, 2009 17:39:33 GMT -5
Lads, no doubt! I am not for one moment suggesting that many (any?) other people in the world could/should follow his routine, least of all me!
Its interesting to see to just what extents and what sucess following the Sheiko training methods can be taken though.
Smashing find Steve.
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Post by benburgess on Jan 5, 2009 15:07:12 GMT -5
Thanks (benburgess)for the info, look forward to see some of the Andrey Belayevs training stuff. I have also been thinking of doing reverse band work raw since you can work full rom and get the heavy weight towards lockout. I know when I did reverse green bands my last cycle I could do the same weight I could do in a shirt. No worries shame its not that useful. How do you set up the bands? I tried the rvs bands (green ironwoodys...i think these are a different tension to green jumpstretch) choked over the top of the power rack. For me I could rep more (even with a close grip) than i have ever shirt benched. They didnt seem to carry over great for me which is annoying as they seem to mimic the way the shirt works very well. I don't know if i were using too much tension. Do you set yours up so they are literally dangling loose for the top few inches or is there some tension left?
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Post by benburgess on Jan 5, 2009 14:09:33 GMT -5
I got an email from Joel who posts (a bit...get involved you supernumpt) on here today with 3 cycles that Andrey Belayev has run or is running. All i can say is wow. Its obvious from the fact that he's totalled about 1050kg at 90 BW that he is probably the greatest lifter I have seen in the short time i have been following PL, but his training is proper lively too. It looks similar to some of the stuff you have been doing recently Eric, but over more days and with more volume i think. He's doing twice a day training, 5-6 days per week, with a lot of assistance work and a ton of volume. I only skimmed the cycles but the things that jumped out are: * His sq and DL %'ages are quite low, maximum 80% and more around 75% * His bench %'ages are much higher, most work is 85-95% * He's hitting a fair bit of board work, all at VERY high (95-100) %'ages I'll try post up some of the stuff I got tomorrow, it is interesting to see the training of a phenom. He does keep failing tests of course which might have something to do with his amazing work capacity but we'll cast no more aspertions abot that hey?
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Post by benburgess on Jan 5, 2009 13:56:05 GMT -5
Here we go.... Great topic The Wall, I think this is the most difficult and frustrating issue to solve when trying to work equipment into Sheiko cycles. I wish I could say "you definately need to do this" becuase that would mean that I also knew the answer, and my shirt bench would be going up instead of falling out my backside. I can tell you a couple of things I have tried that did NOT work for me: 1. Theres a translated email floating about the net somewhere that Boris Sheiko wrote...in it he says he has his guys work raw 90% of the time, and they just throw their shirts on the last couple of weeks. I was surprised by this but tried it anyway. No gain over a 12wk cycle, though my raw bench went up about 15kg. 2. I benched best when I used to follow the Metal Militia bench routine. I tried mixing this in with the Sheiko stuff, i.e. did the Sheiko Sq/DL work and the MM stuff for bench (generally working up to a 3rm on boards, lockouts, CGB etc.). No gain over a 12wk cycle. Its hard to find out much about good shirted benchers who use Sheiko. Wade is one example, as far as I know he does something like the following movements, maybe Joel could chip in he is a right HooperTrainingBoffin: - Shirt bench, not traditional Sheiko %'ages, instead 90% x 3 x 1 - Raw paused bench with usual Sheiko %'ages (pyramid?) - Floor press with usual Sheiko %'ages - Raw Bench with chains...i dont know how the %'ages are set up I got an email today with Andrey Belayevs training on it. I can tell you that from what I read he does about 75% full ROM benching (hard to tell what is based off his raw max and what is off his shirt max) and 25% benching off boards. His board %'ages are around 95-100%. I dont know what thats based off, could be his full ROM raw max? It is probably worth mentioning that both those lifters (especially Belayev) are complete circus freaks and must be at least MSIC, more likely Honorable Master of Sport (Eric could maybe confirm?) so applying their training to mere mortals might not work.
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Post by benburgess on Jan 2, 2009 5:40:22 GMT -5
I squat reasonably wide and pull sumo so I find little benefit in front squats. I have tried using box squats in place of front squats which has helped my deadlift. Same here. I can see how front squats might be useful for a conventional puller but unless you squat olympic style or have a massive quad weakness, I'd have thought just plain old squatting would have more carryover to your squat.
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Post by benburgess on Jan 1, 2009 9:18:43 GMT -5
You could check out some of Wades videos of his training on YouTube, i know he does a fair few pause squats...I guess you could roughly work out the %'ages.
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Post by benburgess on Jan 1, 2009 9:15:25 GMT -5
For your pin presses are you starting from lockout, lowering to the pins and then pressing? For my pin presses I set the pins at my sticking point and do a concentric only movement. This weight is much less than my shirted max but has pushed up my shirted bench. My bench comp max is 267.5kg (220kg raw) and I use 230kg for pin presses (also raw). I put them in the template in place of dips or overhead press. This has worked well so far. I have used 4 and 5 boards in the past which are both over my bench max but they seemed to have little carryover to the shirted bench max - I just got really good at board pressing. Nah I do them as you do, but for some reason for me a 6" ROM pin lockout 1rm = shirt 1rm, and i have quite short arms! I thought of using them in place of where the program says 'tricep' or 'dips' as you have but i didnt think they'd be very equal in terms of loading...I've always thought that to get much training effect from pin lockouts they need to be reasonably near to my shirted max, meaning you'd be hitting triples or doubles? Doing tricep excersises or dips for 5x10 is way less strain. However you have had sucess using lockouts with ~85% shirt max so maybe I will give this a go as it definately seems to be working for you.
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Post by benburgess on Dec 31, 2008 9:03:43 GMT -5
Keep in mind that when it comes to GPP the most important thing is TOTAL TIME in minutes per week. Exactly what i DIDNT want to hear!!! Time I what I have least of, personally. Recovery I generally do fine with, energy is rarely a problem, and motivation never. But with work, family, etc. finding another 4hrs a week to devote to training is tough which is why untill now I generally have been doing short walks (30min) interspersed with sprints, to try and get some work done in what time i have... This thread is good though, I've been out twice this week already and usually i'd maybe have swerved one GPP session already.
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Post by benburgess on Dec 31, 2008 8:55:28 GMT -5
Yeah, I was under the impression the collision upon impact of the bar hitting the board was what made your stronger via kinetic energy/eccentric loading etc. Yeah i know thats a popular theory on FI, I never looked at the issue with that degree of complexity...for me a raw 4" board press overloads the top half of my bench stroke where the shirt helps less. I figure getting stronger at that top half should help me shirt bench more. However proof of the pudding and all that... Do you actually miss your raw benches at 3 board then? My understanding of the MM way is that it has relevance to shirted work- where you hit the board let it sink and then 'throw' the bar back up. For me this seems to simulate the 'kick' off the chest you get with shirts. On a forum discussion Sebastian said something like boards were more a technique thing- strength work- or learning to muscle weight- was more pin lockouts and full ROM. I definately agree on the first point mate. 2nd is VERY interesting. Looking back at when my shirt bench was best (i.e. when i did MM) I was doing tons of pin lockouts. When i switched to Sheiko with the call for so much more full ROM raw bench, I just kept one movement - the boards. I figured they were closer to a 'real' bench. My shirt bench has gone backwards since I started Sheiko so maybe this could be part of the answer. It'd be tough to introcuce pin lockouts into a prep cycle, at least following the MM style. IIRC MM say you should be using a weight not more than ~15kg above your shirt bench, and that if you are you must be using too litte ROM. I guess you could use your shirted bench max, a ROM that was 1/3rd of your total stroke and the Sheiko %'ages...though doing a quick sum that looks too light to get much training effect, for my #'s anyway.
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Post by benburgess on Dec 30, 2008 9:39:32 GMT -5
Do you think you could find it in your supreme education to use a more family suited phrase? Thank you Bill Blackstone Appologies and edited.
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Post by benburgess on Dec 30, 2008 5:28:33 GMT -5
I dont get it. You took the MM approach and your 3 board went from 125 to 147.5x5??? That sounds alright to me! The MM style has a pause too, maybe more of a sink, but its definately not t&g. Yeah but it didnt improve my bottom end at all...even off a 1 board. Pausing is more suited to raw for me it seems. Ah, right OK. Well i spose that makes sense - MM are shirt specialists after all....
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Post by benburgess on Dec 29, 2008 18:30:33 GMT -5
Intially I took this approach and ended up taking my touch and go bench from 117.5kg to 120kg. My 3 board went from 125kg to 147.5kgx5. This has taught me (for me) dont listen to equipped members of FI I dont get it. You took the MM approach and your 3 board went from 125 to 147.5x5??? That sounds alright to me! The MM style has a pause too, maybe more of a sink, but its definately not t&g.
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Post by benburgess on Dec 29, 2008 18:27:18 GMT -5
Thanks for the response eric If I were to add and exercise to the program when would I do this, would I add the exercise at the end of the workout as the last exercise and at what percent do you think I should do the exercise at or how many reps left in the tank should I have left when I do the exercise. Would it be best to choose a supplemental exercise or developmental exercise. Thanks again speaking for myself i would choose developmental SPP excersises and do 4 sets of 8 or so but really the crucial factor like all the other lads say is diet. You can bash out as many sets and reps as you like but if you arnt eating enough (and of the right things) you won't grow much at all.
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