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Post by robwhite on May 1, 2009 8:14:31 GMT -5
I was reading up on hair mineral analysis, and it seems a bit 'flakey'. There are lots of things that can affect it, like the shampoo you use, the water you wash your hair in, smog in the air, etc. I've also read of people trying out the validity by sending hair samples taken at exactly the same time to different labs, and getting drastically different results.  Therefore, i was looking around at other mineral testing methods, and i came across liquid mineral taste tests. Basically, you put a liquid solution of a mineral in your mouth, and if you can taste it, you dont need it, if you cant, you do. An example: www.mineraltestkit.co.uk/products.asp I know for zinc at least, this test has been done clinically for a long time now with good reliability. The added bonus is that the liquid solutions actually provide highly bioavailable forms of the minerals, so if you cant taste a mineral when you test for it, you can just swallow the solution and you are already going some way to correct the deficiency. I was wondering what Eric's thought on this were? |
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Post by erictalmant on May 5, 2009 15:37:31 GMT -5
I was reading up on hair mineral analysis, and it seems a bit 'flakey'. There are lots of things that can affect it, like the shampoo you use, the water you wash your hair in, smog in the air, etc. I've also read of people trying out the validity by sending hair samples taken at exactly the same time to different labs, and getting drastically different results. Therefore, i was looking around at other mineral testing methods, and i came across liquid mineral taste tests. Basically, you put a liquid solution of a mineral in your mouth, and if you can taste it, you dont need it, if you cant, you do. An example: www.mineraltestkit.co.uk/products.asp I know for zinc at least, this test has been done clinically for a long time now with good reliability. The added bonus is that the liquid solutions actually provide highly bioavailable forms of the minerals, so if you cant taste a mineral when you test for it, you can just swallow the solution and you are already going some way to correct the deficiency. I was wondering what Eric's thought on this were? It is hard for me to say, Rob. No lab test is ever going to be 100%. What I do know is that reliable labs (of which TEI for hair analysis has been for us MT advisors), when used by a competent advisor, simply help to add one more piece to the puzzle. I would need to ask Bill Wolcott and some of the other more experienced advisors that have been doing this for a long time what their reaction is. Keep in mind that there is a difference between a qualitative and a quantitative deficiency. For example, just because someone shows low for calcium on a hair analysis does not mean that more calcium is needed. It could be that additional calcium is needed, or it could mean that for whatever reason, calcium intake is sufficient but is not finding its way into the cells. This is where the investigation, additional experience, education, etc. come into play... Another piece to the puzzle. Make sense? |
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Post by robwhite on May 6, 2009 4:38:18 GMT -5
Yeah i think i get what you are saying Eric - what you consume in terms of micronutrients (e.g. vitamins, minerals), doesnt necessarily indicate what you are actually uptaking into your cells from your blood. T-nation did a really good article years ago called "I Could Just Spit! - The Joys of Salivary Hormone Testing" by by Joe Ailts showing why saliva tests are actually as accurate, or more accurate, than blood tests for determining functional hormone status. This is why i think blood tests for a lot of medical tests are outdated and GP's should really get up to date with using saliva (and urnie) tests more.
With regards to taste tests for mineral deficiencies, i think it works along the principle that when your intracellular and extracellular environment are adequately saturated with the mineral in question, your taste buds become sensetised to the taste of the mineral (as an animal would when it tastes something poisonous).
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Post by erictalmant on May 8, 2009 9:46:20 GMT -5
Yeah i think i get what you are saying Eric - what you consume in terms of micronutrients (e.g. vitamins, minerals), doesnt necessarily indicate what you are actually uptaking into your cells from your blood. T-nation did a really good article years ago called "I Could Just Spit! - The Joys of Salivary Hormone Testing" by by Joe Ailts showing why saliva tests are actually as accurate, or more accurate, than blood tests for determining functional hormone status. This is why i think blood tests for a lot of medical tests are outdated and GP's should really get up to date with using saliva (and urnie) tests more. With regards to taste tests for mineral deficiencies, i think it works along the principle that when your intracellular and extracellular environment are adequately saturated with the mineral in question, your taste buds become sensetised to the taste of the mineral (as an animal would when it tastes something poisonous). I will investigate this further at the Metabolic Typing® advisor's forum and report back with what I find. |
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Post by robwhite on May 8, 2009 10:57:52 GMT -5
Great. Would love to hear the general opinion of MT advisors.
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Post by robwhite on Aug 18, 2009 11:25:54 GMT -5
I've been looking into this a bit more. It seems the taste test was created by a well respected Dr Bryce-Smith. It seems to get a good rap, so my flat mate and I bought a bottle of liquid zinc heptahydrate from a local health shop, and we did the test, following the dilution instructions precisely. Neither of us could taste anything! Possibly a sign we have some zinc deficiency going on here  In fact, i tried a bit of it undiluted, and i still could not taste anything. Interestingly, she had a hair mineral analysis done at TEI Labs and it showed her zinc levels to be in the optimal range (she did send this to you Eric - she is a client of yours as well). Found this journal article here on hair mineral analysis www.orthomolecular.org/library/jom/1985/pdf/1985-v14n04-p276.pdfAlso found this Journal mention of hair mineral analysis and liquid mineral taste test for assessing zinc deficiency www.orthomolecular.org/library/jom/1995/pdf/1995-v10n0304-p149.pdf Adverse Effects of Zinc Deficiency: A Review. Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine Vol. 10, No. 3 & 4, 1995
In clinical settings zinc deficiency is usually assessed using any of the following; plasma, serum, leucocyte, muscle, urine, hair, sweat or taste.148 However, it has now been established that both plasma and serum zinc concentrations are subject to acute variations, being highest in the morning and falling after a meal. Stress alone can cause a rapid fall in plasma zinc values, as can certain steroid drugs, such as oral contraceptives. 148,221 Furthermore, all manner of infections tend to reduce both plasma and serum zinc levels in a way that is not necessarily related to primary nutritional zinc status. Only repeated low plasma zinc tests can provide grounds for suspecting zinc deficiency. 148 Muscle and leucocyte zinc are probably the most reliable analytical methods for the assessment of primary nutritional zinc status.148 Hair zinc analysis represents a permanent deposition of zinc status, as the metal is firmly bound in the hair protein structure. However, caution is urged in the interpretation, as animal studies show that reduced dietary zinc leads at first to low hair zinc levels, but when zinc depletion continues, values seem to return to the normal range, presumably because the reduced hair growth resulting from impaired protein synthesis leads to a compensating increased concentrations of zinc and other elements in such hair when it grows.148 Sweat zinc is presently regarded one of the most sensitive indexes of zinc status.11 The “Taste-Test” for zinc deficiency is based on the evidence that the sense of taste is indeed among the first senses to be adversely affected in zinc deficiency.4,12,143-147 The test is based on four clearly distinguished categories of taste response on test solution of 0.1% zinc sulphate heptahydrate diluted in distilled water. 4,12,148,149,221 Recently the taste-test scores have been found to correlate closely with sweat zinc levels.132This is interesting, because it implies that hair mineral analysis maybe no good for determining deficiencies if you have been deficient for a long time, because your hair compensates by growing at a slower rate which makes mineral concentrations re-build in the hair. This may explain why my housemates hair mineral analysis showed normal zinc levels, but the test taste indicated a definate deficiency. It also says that the Bryce-Smith taste test is as good as the sweat test, which is a highly reliable test. Therefore, it seems that using the liquid taste test for a few months first to get your mineral levels optimal is a good idea before doing the hair mineral analysis, which can then be done more accurately to determine your metabolic imbalances by studying mineral ratios in your hair, and also see what your build up of toxic metals is like. |
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Post by erictalmant on Aug 19, 2009 8:14:52 GMT -5
I've been looking into this a bit more. It seems the taste test was created by a well respected Dr Bryce-Smith. It seems to get a good rap, so my flat mate and I bought a bottle of liquid zinc heptahydrate from a local health shop, and we did the test, following the dilution instructions precisely. Neither of us could taste anything! Possibly a sign we have some zinc deficiency going on here In fact, i tried a bit of it undiluted, and i still could not taste anything. Interestingly, she had a hair mineral analysis done at TEI Labs and it showed her zinc levels to be in the optimal range (she did send this to you Eric - she is a client of yours as well). Found this journal article here on hair mineral analysis www.orthomolecular.org/library/jom/1985/pdf/1985-v14n04-p276.pdfAlso found this Journal mention of hair mineral analysis and liquid mineral taste test for assessing zinc deficiency www.orthomolecular.org/library/jom/1995/pdf/1995-v10n0304-p149.pdf Adverse Effects of Zinc Deficiency: A Review. Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine Vol. 10, No. 3 & 4, 1995
In clinical settings zinc deficiency is usually assessed using any of the following; plasma, serum, leucocyte, muscle, urine, hair, sweat or taste.148 However, it has now been established that both plasma and serum zinc concentrations are subject to acute variations, being highest in the morning and falling after a meal. Stress alone can cause a rapid fall in plasma zinc values, as can certain steroid drugs, such as oral contraceptives. 148,221 Furthermore, all manner of infections tend to reduce both plasma and serum zinc levels in a way that is not necessarily related to primary nutritional zinc status. Only repeated low plasma zinc tests can provide grounds for suspecting zinc deficiency. 148 Muscle and leucocyte zinc are probably the most reliable analytical methods for the assessment of primary nutritional zinc status.148 Hair zinc analysis represents a permanent deposition of zinc status, as the metal is firmly bound in the hair protein structure. However, caution is urged in the interpretation, as animal studies show that reduced dietary zinc leads at first to low hair zinc levels, but when zinc depletion continues, values seem to return to the normal range, presumably because the reduced hair growth resulting from impaired protein synthesis leads to a compensating increased concentrations of zinc and other elements in such hair when it grows.148 Sweat zinc is presently regarded one of the most sensitive indexes of zinc status.11 The “Taste-Test” for zinc deficiency is based on the evidence that the sense of taste is indeed among the first senses to be adversely affected in zinc deficiency.4,12,143-147 The test is based on four clearly distinguished categories of taste response on test solution of 0.1% zinc sulphate heptahydrate diluted in distilled water. 4,12,148,149,221 Recently the taste-test scores have been found to correlate closely with sweat zinc levels.132This is interesting, because it implies that hair mineral analysis maybe no good for determining deficiencies if you have been deficient for a long time, because your hair compensates by growing at a slower rate which makes mineral concentrations re-build in the hair. This may explain why my housemates hair mineral analysis showed normal zinc levels, but the test taste indicated a definate deficiency. It also says that the Bryce-Smith taste test is as good as the sweat test, which is a highly reliable test. Therefore, it seems that using the liquid taste test for a few months first to get your mineral levels optimal is a good idea before doing the hair mineral analysis, which can then be done more accurately to determine your metabolic imbalances by studying mineral ratios in your hair, and also see what your build up of toxic metals is like. Just as I noted back in May, keep in mind that there is a difference between a qualitative and a quantitative deficiency. For example, just because someone shows low for zinc on a hair analysis does not mean that more zinc is needed. It could be that additional zinc is needed; or it could mean that for whatever reason, zinc intake is sufficient but is not finding its way into the cells. So, let's assume for the moment that the liquid mineral taste tests are all valid. So, now we need to figure out WHY you and your flat mate are deficient in zinc. Which imbalance(s) in the FHC's are perhaps causing this? Would removing more blocking factors and toxic loads help the situation? This is exactly the type of work that I do with clients that either sign up for my comprehensive program or that do the comprehensive program piecemeal. In the end, perhaps simply supplementing with additional zinc will rectify the situation; and then again perhaps not. You guys are certainly on the right track and are asking the right questions! If you continue to dig deeper then please keep us posted. There is no one known "cure" for everyone that has a real zinc deficiency; as I am guessing you and your flat mate may eventually discover... |
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Post by robwhite on Aug 20, 2009 5:37:38 GMT -5
Yeah, the first article i linked in my last post corroberates what you are saying:
"Malabsorption
When minerals are generally low in a hair sample, it does not necessarily indicate a poor diet. Rather it could be due to malabsorption. As people age, they tend to have a lower level of stomach acid (achlorhydria), necessary for mineral utilization. Likewise, they could have chronic pancreatitis insufficiency or gastrointestinal mucosal changes preventing
absorption. The low fiber intake plus the high consumption of largely nutritionless foods such as sugar, white flour and fats flatten gastrointestinal villae, essential for absorption (24)."
Basically, it maybe that sufficient zinc, or whatever mineral, is being ingested, but for some reason your body cant absorb it.
Ironically, low zinc levels are linked to low stomach acid levels, but having low stomach acid levels prevents your from fully absorbing zinc!
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Post by erictalmant on Sept 2, 2009 16:55:53 GMT -5
Yeah, the first article i linked in my last post corroberates what you are saying: "Malabsorption When minerals are generally low in a hair sample, it does not necessarily indicate a poor diet. Rather it could be due to malabsorption. As people age, they tend to have a lower level of stomach acid (achlorhydria), necessary for mineral utilization. Likewise, they could have chronic pancreatitis insufficiency or gastrointestinal mucosal changes preventing absorption. The low fiber intake plus the high consumption of largely nutritionless foods such as sugar, white flour and fats flatten gastrointestinal villae, essential for absorption (24)." Basically, it maybe that sufficient zinc, or whatever mineral, is being ingested, but for some reason your body cant absorb it. Ironically, low zinc levels are linked to low stomach acid levels, but having low stomach acid levels prevents your from fully absorbing zinc! Actually, to take it one step further-when I am analyzing a client's hair analysis, one of the first things I look at is whether or not their vitamins and minerals are low across the board. If they are, then that tells me that they need to either start or increase their HCL supplementation for their type. |
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Post by robwhite on Oct 14, 2009 11:18:31 GMT -5
Well, me and my housemate got the mineral taste test kit about 3 weeks ago, which included testing bottles of potassium, zinc, magnesium, copper, chromium, manganese, molybdenum, and selenium solutions pre-mixed with ionized water, and the same minerals again conentrate (i.e not mixed with ionized water) for supplementing with. The kit is really easy to use - just drops of the solution in water - and optionally adding a little (metabolically appropriate) vit C to the cocktail to improve absorption.
When i first tested using this kit, i was deficient in everything except molybdenum, which tasted so foul i wanted to be sick, but my housemate thought tasted fine. Lol. But when she had the copper, she had the same reaction as i did to the molybdenum. So this gave us our daily mineral supplementation profiles for the next week.
The next weekend when we re-tested, in addition to getting a nasty taste from the molybdenum (as before), i also got a bad taste from the manganese, as did my housemate (she was also still getting a bad taste from the copper). So, thats 2 out of 8 we were no longer deficient in.
The following weekend, i got the same results as the previous week, except i got a nasty taste from the zinc and chromium as well, as did my housemate. 4 out of 8 now sorted. Interestingly, at this point i noticed i needed one less HCL with my meals. I have also noticeably increased my lean-to-fat mass ratio, although this could easily have been down to the adrenal recovery program Eric has got me on.
The following couple of weeks several people in the gym and office had really bad colds and flu, and my training load also went up significantly. Amazingly, with all of these stressors coming at me all of a sugdden, i didnt get ill, BUT when i tested my minerals for those weekends, i started to show deficiences in almost everything! It was as if my body was getting through much higher levels of minerals to keep my immune system strong, and needed more supplementation of them.
Another interesting observation is that i seem to always detect as deficient in magnesium. I am a parasympathetic dominant fast oxidiser, so extra magnesium is meant to be a no-no for me, but as Eric has alluded to before, there can be occasions when extra magnesium can be used even for parasympathetics / fast oxidisers, and perhaps my levels are so low that i am not even meeting the requirement for the small amount my body needs.
Its a great little kit, and i really like the idea of being able to detect what minerals i am deficient in, or have excess amounts of, and dynamically supplement as is needed on a weekly basis. Bill should really look into this, as i think it TRULY represents individualising a persons supplementation to their own week-by-week requirements rather than taking the a multi-mineral which may contain minerals i already have sufficient or excess levels.
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Post by erictalmant on Oct 21, 2009 8:31:41 GMT -5
Well, me and my housemate got the mineral taste test kit about 3 weeks ago, which included testing bottles of potassium, zinc, magnesium, copper, chromium, manganese, molybdenum, and selenium solutions pre-mixed with ionized water, and the same minerals again conentrate (i.e not mixed with ionized water) for supplementing with. The kit is really easy to use - just drops of the solution in water - and optionally adding a little (metabolically appropriate) vit C to the cocktail to improve absorption. When i first tested using this kit, i was deficient in everything except molybdenum, which tasted so foul i wanted to be sick, but my housemate thought tasted fine. Lol. But when she had the copper, she had the same reaction as i did to the molybdenum. So this gave us our daily mineral supplementation profiles for the next week. The next weekend when we re-tested, in addition to getting a nasty taste from the molybdenum (as before), i also got a bad taste from the manganese, as did my housemate (she was also still getting a bad taste from the copper). So, thats 2 out of 8 we were no longer deficient in. The following weekend, i got the same results as the previous week, except i got a nasty taste from the zinc and chromium as well, as did my housemate. 4 out of 8 now sorted. Interestingly, at this point i noticed i needed one less HCL with my meals. I have also noticeably increased my lean-to-fat mass ratio, although this could easily have been down to the adrenal recovery program Eric has got me on. The following couple of weeks several people in the gym and office had really bad colds and flu, and my training load also went up significantly. Amazingly, with all of these stressors coming at me all of a sugdden, i didnt get ill, BUT when i tested my minerals for those weekends, i started to show deficiences in almost everything! It was as if my body was getting through much higher levels of minerals to keep my immune system strong, and needed more supplementation of them. Another interesting observation is that i seem to always detect as deficient in magnesium. I am a parasympathetic dominant fast oxidiser, so extra magnesium is meant to be a no-no for me, but as Eric has alluded to before, there can be occasions when extra magnesium can be used even for parasympathetics / fast oxidisers, and perhaps my levels are so low that i am not even meeting the requirement for the small amount my body needs. Its a great little kit, and i really like the idea of being able to detect what minerals i am deficient in, or have excess amounts of, and dynamically supplement as is needed on a weekly basis. Bill should really look into this, as i think it TRULY represents individualising a persons supplementation to their own week-by-week requirements rather than taking the a multi-mineral which may contain minerals i already have sufficient or excess levels. I will pass this along to him the next time we talk. I know that Bill has a lot on his plate right now. We have some very exciting things coming up in the future for MT...!!! Keep in mind that just because someone might be deficient in X may not mean that simply supplementing with more of X will do the trick. It might be a matter of what is inhibiting or preventing X from being absorbed and finding its way properly into the cells. |
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In fact, i tried a bit of it undiluted, and i still could not taste anything. Interestingly, she had a hair mineral analysis done at TEI Labs and it showed her zinc levels to be in the optimal range (she did send this to you Eric - she is a client of yours as well).