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Post by joeldibattista on Jan 9, 2009 0:14:18 GMT -5
Today I seen some results from both the Russian and Ukrainian IPF affiliates where they had the lifter ratings next to each lifters name. I assume they have a rating table for single ply lifts, which would be handy for us equipped lifters. Anyone know where to find it?
My raw strength is pretty average compared to my equipped stuff as I don't train raw very much, so I think I may be a higher rating than what I read off the raw chart that Eric has posted up on EFS.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2009 9:10:00 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2009 11:10:06 GMT -5
A lot of them are lower than the numbers I've seen Eric post for unequipped, according to this I'm a Class 1 lifter without any gear at all. If this is the case I'm shooting for a CMS by next year.
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Post by benburgess on Jan 9, 2009 12:04:42 GMT -5
Yeah thats quite a difference...
As an example:
The chart on Elite says CMS is 607.5kg at 82.5kg bw raw.
The chart above says CMS is 565kg at 82.5kg bw equipped (presuming KMC = CMS).
Thats a huge difference. You would be hitting 565 equipped YEARS before you hit 607 raw!
I dont know which is correct, but 565@82 sounds low for a lifter who is a candidate for being a master of the sport!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2009 20:16:22 GMT -5
There is no "a correct one".
That's what Russian federation actually use, and it has been by Sheiko himself.
The other is the older one, used the same by Russian federation, just before this one, since 1987. (so with equipment, differente but with equipment). They simply lower the position of CMS.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2009 21:15:02 GMT -5
There is no "a correct one". That's what Russian federation actually use, and it has been by Sheiko himself. The other is the older one, used the same by Russian federation, just before this one, since 1987. (so with equipment, differente but with equipment). They simply lower the position of CMS. i agree. I use the cms/ms 36 with a 1400 equipped total at 82.5. By the elite table, I'm not using the correct program, but I've used a variety, and I make the best gains using the cms/ms template. It all comes down to genetics, rest, nutrition and, of course, volume base as determined by experience. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2009 4:52:01 GMT -5
You're right, under IPF ref and doping control 636 kg total is considered for sure a good level and not a beginner one. In your case i would use both 3 day and 4 days a week program, depend on period.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2009 9:38:24 GMT -5
lol. you hit the nail on the head with that statement. I always run a 3 day (#37 generally) prep cycle before I start my final 9 week meet prep in the 36.
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Post by erictalmant on Jan 10, 2009 18:59:33 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2009 22:06:33 GMT -5
hello Eric, I know the arthicle. Sheiko himself said (in that arthicle) that in 1987 the Class I, II , III was too high :
"I am agreeable with the fact that in 1987 the discharge norms were overstated, and the need for decreasing them arose."
But the simply concept is: 20 years ago, there was already gear. Some my teamate compete in IPF in that years: no bench shirt, marathon suit, knee wraps and good marathon deadlift. So, if you want to use it with raw equipment because it works (as IT WORKS) it's ok!
But true for true, they were not made for raw lifting. When Sheiko wrote the book (around 2001???) Did not exist raw liftng, and you can see in the arthicles to wich chart he was referring for the reader (ABSURDLY LOW).
In my opinion the last years charts are too low, i agree using the old one. But, let say a lifter @181 (82,5) who is lifting 1210 ( 550kg ) raw could (and probably should) use CMS plans, some times. Because he is an high level lifter. If you analyse the discharger plans you can see by many fact that they are for quite beginner level lifter.
All this saying that before reading your arthicles i understimate plan#29,30,31 ecc. I start, after reading you and DBates, using that plans. Now i use them for every kind of lifter and the 20 week organization base: 29 (or 37)+ 37 + 32 + 37 + 32 is one of the greatest idea i have never had! So i'm very obbligate to your work.
Remember the experiment made by Yuri Ustimov? He use some CMS plans for training a 220 lbs who was hitting (geard): squat 484 (222.5 kg), bench press – 268 (122.5) kg and deadlift 505 (235) kg. for a 1160 (580kg) gear total.
I would have done the same? probably not, but that are fact to consider. If you take about 90% of the chart you could have a rought esimation on what raw lifting is referred to the original chart.
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Post by erictalmant on Jan 11, 2009 15:04:00 GMT -5
Based on my knowledge of the Soviet rating system from back in the 60's-80's, the first chart that was made for powerlifting that Sheiko references works well for raw lifting today.
Take for example what it takes to be an MSIC in the 75K class (1520 total). To be an MSIC, that means that you are basically your country's national champion or at least second in your weight class and that you belong on a true national stage. In the United States, the only lifter that I know of right now that can do a raw total like that is Wade Hooper and maybe Tony Conyers.
The chart does check out. Many want to take the easy way out and claim a rank that they really do not deserve and that is fine. If they want to do that then more power to them. In my experience, the first chart made in Russia works 100% perfectly well for the raw lifters of today.
Eric
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2009 18:14:37 GMT -5
"In my experience, the first chart made in Russia works 100% perfectly well for the raw lifters of today"
I never said something different.
My point is simple: that plans are not made by Sheiko for raw totals, but in related to meet total, so with gear. when the books come out, to train with CMS plans a 75kg needed to do 565 kg in competition, so with gear.
"Many want to take the easy way out and claim a rank that they really do not deserve and that is fine. If they want to do that then more power to them."
i cant understand what this part metter with the discussion. I'm not speaking of someone who want to cheat himself (?), is simply that Sheiko do not wrote them for raw lifting in that chart. Is it Ustimov cheating Barabash when he gave him Sheiko CMS plans? I 'd personally take off at least 10% to that chart to understand rougly at what raw total is referred, because raw lifting do not exist at that time.
Just for curiosity i take a look at russian Weightlifting Chart (basically untouched in years). And it is in line to my opinion: CMS is an averange level (3/4 year of training) and MCIC is not so near to world record.
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Post by benburgess on Jan 12, 2009 13:34:29 GMT -5
Based on my knowledge of the Soviet rating system from back in the 60's-80's, the first chart that was made for powerlifting that Sheiko references works well for raw lifting today. Take for example what it takes to be an MSIC in the 75K class (1520 total). To be an MSIC, that means that you are basically your country's national champion or at least second in your weight class and that you belong on a true national stage. In the United States, the only lifter that I know of right now that can do a raw total like that is Wade Hooper and maybe Tony Conyers. The chart does check out. Many want to take the easy way out and claim a rank that they really do not deserve and that is fine. If they want to do that then more power to them. In my experience, the first chart made in Russia works 100% perfectly well for the raw lifters of today. Eric Eric i couldnt agree more. The newer chart seems way too easy to be a CMS. Lets stick with the 75kg example. The 87 chart says CMS = 565 raw The new chart says CMS = 535 eqp Lets say an average single ply lifter gets ~130kg from using equipment, over their raw total. That would mean that 'modern CMS guy' is actually totalling ~ 400kg raw. Now 565 raw at 75 is a good total. I dont think it is, however, an unbelievable/unobtainable total with a bit of hard work. Maybe you could make an argument it is too high and needs dropping. But by 165kg?? 400kg is really what id think of as a beginner total really, something most 75 guys would acheive after a couple of years training and certainly not what i would expect a candidate to being a master of the sport to be doing. Just my opinion. |
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Post by spsfw on Jan 12, 2009 15:36:33 GMT -5
I'm interested to know how our rating would relate to the templates we follow. I understand that people new to Sheiko should probably run through the beginners templates a few times- but for how long. For me, for eg, I am pretty much right on MS raw (by the old ratings Eric posted on Elite) and I am about 3 weeks off having done 27 weeks (9weeks+9weeks+9weeks). Do I keep doing the beginner templates till they stop working?
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Post by davebates on Jan 12, 2009 17:47:26 GMT -5
I'm interested to know how our rating would relate to the templates we follow. I understand that people new to Sheiko should probably run through the beginners templates a few times- but for how long. For me, for eg, I am pretty much right on MS raw (by the old ratings Eric posted on Elite) and I am about 3 weeks off having done 27 weeks (9weeks+9weeks+9weeks). Do I keep doing the beginner templates till they stop working? I would say "sure" why not?
Once you stop making progress on 3 days a week, you will need to do more work. (4 days a week). Until then, enjoy the "extra day of rest"  |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2009 18:06:40 GMT -5
Benburgess, I say the same of you: new chart is extremely LOw. That sure.
I just pointed out that if you want to relate old chart with raw lifting you have to take off (about)10%, the gift of the old gear. So instead of 565 you could say 510. Belive me, 565 is not so easy to reach if you are DRUG FREE, and under a IPF ref. It mean 200 kg squat (at 75 is a huge squat), 135 bench press (with pause at 75 is a good bench press) and 230 kg deadlift (at 75kg is a huge deadlift). I saw many many lifters, but not so many able to do that total REGULAR. I so much more high squat, bounce bench ecc. So, Sheiko give you 4 days a week training a bit before having reach that total.
But follow the advice of Dave Bates about choosing plans, i'm just speaking for general knoledge.
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