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Post by deathevocation on Apr 21, 2010 17:49:15 GMT -5
The programs provide for rack pulls using your actual deadlift max. The percentages never go over 85%. I've always thought of rack pulls as an overload exercise (John Kuc appears to have used up tp 100% - 107%, Brad Gillingham uses them to work up to 100% early in his program and in a Gus Rethwisch program I've followed in the past, they are used at higher percentages and work up to well over 100% towards the end). When writing the programs obviously it was concluded that the percentages used were best for rack work and I was interested to read thoughts on as to why they are as opposed to using higher percentages per my examples.
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Post by joeldibattista on Apr 21, 2010 18:25:53 GMT -5
Well firstly, you are comparing a rated lifter program (I assume) to the training routines of World Champions. Rated lifters don't require as much high intensity work.
You will notice there are 90% work in #29, #30 etc.
The CMS plans have 100% rack pulls.
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Post by deathevocation on Apr 21, 2010 19:26:58 GMT -5
World champions yes, though I don't think you need to be a world champion to work high % rack pulls (ie the numbers in the Rethwisch program were based on a "intermediate" 272.50kg pull and I've read many articles where world champions advocate them and they know that 99% of their audience are not world champions). If the rack pull is for overloading, what benefit do you get from pulling from your knees at pretty much the same percentage as you do from the ground? Obviously Sheiko and many others know more about this subject than I'll ever know though it does strike me as a bit peculiar. Noted your advice on the CMS progam (I've never really looked at the CMS program in much detail as I'm not CMS) and I forgot about 29 (do pulls from the ground in 29 go up to 90%?).
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2010 22:42:33 GMT -5
World champions yes, though I don't think you need to be a world champion to work high % rack pulls (ie the numbers in the Rethwisch program were based on a "intermediate" 272.50kg pull and I've read many articles where world champions advocate them and they know that 99% of their audience are not world champions). If the rack pull is for overloading, what benefit do you get from pulling from your knees at pretty much the same percentage as you do from the ground? Obviously Sheiko and many others know more about this subject than I'll ever know though it does strike me as a bit peculiar. Noted your advice on the CMS progam (I've never really looked at the CMS program in much detail as I'm not CMS) and I forgot about 29 (do pulls from the ground in 29 go up to 90%?). Hi mate, My first impression would be that, without a de-load and after many sets before hand, a 90% rack pull is going to feel very similar (subjective term) to a 100% rack pull at any rate. It is admittedly odd in the way that the separate training max determined for the rack pull isn't used, but I think the lifters training under the tutelage of Mr Sheiko would probably have very similar strength curves, due to having spent time training under the system. Just my 5c TB |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2010 0:02:19 GMT -5
Rack pulls under Sheiko are performed from below the knee as this a tough place for most deadlifters . Most failed lifts occur around this vicinity, they either stall or try and dip their legs under the bar(hitch). Alot of people do rack pulls from way above the knee and this does not represent their true deadlift technique. I think you would find it difficult to do your best ever deadlift from below the knee in a rack, pulling from the floor gives the bar abit of speed to get you through this area.. Try it!
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Post by deathevocation on Apr 22, 2010 4:51:04 GMT -5
Will do. On the topic - you recommend pulls against bands or hang cleans rather than rack work?
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Post by joeldibattista on Apr 22, 2010 5:24:00 GMT -5
World champions yes, though I don't think you need to be a world champion to work high % rack pulls (ie the numbers in the Rethwisch program were based on a "intermediate" 272.50kg pull and I've read many articles where world champions advocate them and they know that 99% of their audience are not world champions). Right, but this is the Sheiko forum and I merely explaining the theory as I believe it to be... A rack pull is for overloading according to you. Sheiko simply uses it as a tool to build the top part of the deadlift, I don't believe he has stated anywhere that you need to overload the lift in order to build your deadlift lockout. I never go to 100% of my bench press on boards and they work in building the top end of my bench just fine. Also, as someone pointed out below, pulling from below the knee is usually quite tough. I probably couldn't pull 100% from that position, especially for reps. No, 85% are the heaviest full range pulls in #29. |
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Post by deathevocation on Apr 22, 2010 6:15:08 GMT -5
Hmm. Interesting and relevant comment on the board work, I was actually going to raise that in an earlier post. I imagine SP is the same? It appears from following Baxter's log over at the local forum though that he is using 300kg for rack work on his bench which I understand to be above his full press (might not be for much longer). I haven't done board work since I last competed (08 nats) and towards to the end of the cycle the weights would be heavier than full rom (though this was following periodisation not Sheiko). Just on that part of your post and to clarifiy, I definitely haven't made a motherhood statement that rack pulls must be for overloading only, hence this topic seeking discussion on Sheiko's methodology behind it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2010 22:46:14 GMT -5
Hi mate,
Bench press is a different case due to the enormous carryover the shirts give, where 20-25% is the norm and carryovers of 30%+ are reported, whereas a deadlift suit would give an increase of 5-10%.
Big Baxter's rack lockouts of 300kg places this work in the 90-100% range of his expected shirt press so in that respect, I wouldn't really classify it as "overload".
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Post by joeldibattista on Apr 23, 2010 2:35:32 GMT -5
I assume Baxter's 300kg lockouts are quite high - a poor analogy to a rack pull below the knee. A better analogy would be a board at your bench sticking point.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2010 17:57:13 GMT -5
I just want to chime in here. When i began sheiko i had all kinds of issues with my Bench and Deadlift. Was ready to throw in the towel. Deadlifts i ALWAYS ducked my knees under the bar and hitched. I was doing lots of overload high pin rack pulls and these definately make that habit worse. After cycle upon cycle of sheiko my deadlift lockout is much stronger and smoother, the knees pull back out the way and bang locked out. I believe the reason it works is as was said earlier in the thread the high starting position you're used to doing puts you in the wrong position. Starting low u really have to set up well and get in a good position.
And as for boards at low percentage they are a godsend! I do 5 sets of 6 at 85ish% every session and my old sticking point and grind lockout is now rocket material at 5kg PR. Believe in Boris he knows best. Try it for a few cycles then look back and itll make sense just by feel.
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Post by joeldibattista on Apr 23, 2010 21:56:33 GMT -5
Great post Aaron. High rack pulls, especially for sumo, rarely target the lockout problem in my experience. I used to just end up squatting the weight up, which is not what was happening when I missed full ROM pulls.
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Post by benburgess on Apr 24, 2010 10:53:02 GMT -5
I agree with Joel and Kiwi, high rack pulls (above the knee) are almost completely useless from a PL point of view (great at building a big back). This is especially the case for sumo pullers, where its so easy to squat the weight up but this bears no resemblance to most full ROM pulls that stall at lockout.
I am weaker pulling with the weights on a 3" high box then i am off the floor, no doubt, and there's no WAY i could double or triple 100% of my 1rm off that box.
I still rate pulls against bands for improving lockout on the pull as it still overloads the top end but does not change the groove.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2010 6:04:33 GMT -5
Aaron - are you saying that you are doing 5 sets of 6 board presses at 85% 1RM every session after the main lifts? That seems like quite a high percentage.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2010 21:32:12 GMT -5
Hey mate yep thats spot on. I thought so too but its worked a treat! At first i couldnt complete the sets id start to fail as of set 4 and 5. Took 3 weeks to adjust and now they are no problem. Off the boards this really isnt as hard as it sounds. But having said that my Bench isnt very strong at all in my comp on sunday im opening squat on 220kg and Bench on 105kg. This was my old PR so 85kg board presses arent that bad. My lockout seems lightning now.
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Post by superaveragebro on Dec 16, 2011 16:13:17 GMT -5
Overloading on any exercise in an intensity manner (ie % of 1RM) is not the point of these routines. Overloading on volume is. Ie work, work and more work. To do lots of work you cannot do 85% + cause you'll be spent in a jiffy. So you must do lots of work under 85% of 1 RM. That's the highest % range that will allow you to work for endless sets. Overtime you'll build more work capacity, ie the your body will adapt to longer workouts with slightly heavier weights which will hopefully translate to a higher 1RM come competition time. That's what Shieko is all about. And from what I've read even Soviet weightlifting system is built on this methodology. So forget about the 100%+ rack pulls. They don't belong to Shieko system.
On a personal note, I have a 255kg deadlift, I have pulled 300kg from blocks. Did my deadlift improve? No cause my sticking point is below the knee.
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