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Post by benburgess on Jul 4, 2010 11:03:31 GMT -5
Since re-thinking all this stuff above I have changed my deadlift quite a bit. I get low back pain from a bulging disc at L5S1 quite regulalry (maybe twice a year, usually lasts about a week) but the most recent bout meant i couldnt pull for almost 2 months.
Since reading all the stuff here i thought it best to try use more leg drive and take some stress off the low back - the thing which made the biggest difference was widening my stance from around 4" between my feet out to maybe 12" between them.
I've had 2 or 3 sessions back now and with this new style i feel it much more in the quads off the floor. The thing which surprised me though is how much more i feel it in the hams...before id break it off the floor with a bit of legs, and then it'd be mostly low back until lockout (when id feel it in the glutes and traps).
With the wider stance and lower hips i feel it in the quads at first but once its at the knees, mostly in the hams (rather than low back). This is hopefully a good thing, i have strong hams anyway and it means the low back strain is a lot less.
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Post by michael on Jul 19, 2010 6:26:10 GMT -5
I had my nationals yesterday after an abbreviated version of the 12 week reduced. This was my 3rd time thru. Weighed in at 162lbs and no knee wraps. Went 5 for 8 going 400-285-550. I was called on depth with 430 which would have been a 10lb pr from just May, the 285 bench was all I had and I had 615 3 inches or so above the knee and stalled on my second attempt. I did not use any pulls to the knees and my speed off the floor was very good, I just keep stalling above the knee. I ahve 16 weeks to train for my first wnpf worlds and I am probably going to stay with the 12 week reduced for a 4th run.
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Post by benburgess on Jul 19, 2010 14:13:42 GMT -5
I had my nationals yesterday after an abbreviated version of the 12 week reduced. This was my 3rd time thru. Weighed in at 162lbs and no knee wraps. Went 5 for 8 going 400-285-550. I was called on depth with 430 which would have been a 10lb pr from just May, the 285 bench was all I had and I had 615 3 inches or so above the knee and stalled on my second attempt. I did not use any pulls to the knees and my speed off the floor was very good, I just keep stalling above the knee. I ahve 16 weeks to train for my first wnpf worlds and I am probably going to stay with the 12 week reduced for a 4th run. So were any of the lifts PBs?
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Post by michael on Jul 19, 2010 16:00:47 GMT -5
No Prs this meet. My bests lifts are 420 (may '10), 295(2005?), and 600(may'09). I only had 8 weeks turnaround from last meet so I was still happy with how things felt in the squat and dead. I had my nationals yesterday after an abbreviated version of the 12 week reduced. This was my 3rd time thru. Weighed in at 162lbs and no knee wraps. Went 5 for 8 going 400-285-550. I was called on depth with 430 which would have been a 10lb pr from just May, the 285 bench was all I had and I had 615 3 inches or so above the knee and stalled on my second attempt. I did not use any pulls to the knees and my speed off the floor was very good, I just keep stalling above the knee. I ahve 16 weeks to train for my first wnpf worlds and I am probably going to stay with the 12 week reduced for a 4th run. So were any of the lifts PBs?
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Post by benburgess on Jul 19, 2010 16:08:11 GMT -5
Not to be a dick but if you have run the 12wk reduced cycle a for almost a whole year and havent PB'd on bench in 5 years then doing the exact same thing AGAIN seems pretty unlikely to net you better results, no?
Maybe you need more/less/different volume/intensity/load on bench?
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Post by michael on Jul 19, 2010 17:05:35 GMT -5
When I benched 310 years ago my tricep work was triple what it is now. I am trying to stay as close sheiko blocks as possible and only change a little at a time as to give it a fair chance. I increased tri work a liitle last cycle and I planm on doing more this cycle. I am not as concerned with the 10 or so pounds I may be leaving on the platform from the bench as I am the 50 or so from the squat and or dead. After Dave helps me with this next cycle I will add my own minor adjustments. Not to be a dick but if you have run the 12wk reduced cycle a for almost a whole year and havent PB'd on bench in 5 years then doing the exact same thing AGAIN seems pretty unlikely to net you better results, no? Maybe you need more/less/different volume/intensity/load on bench?
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Post by davebates on Jul 22, 2010 2:49:35 GMT -5
For those who dont like or dont rate the effectiveness of the pulls to knees which are so prevalent in Sheiko programming (me included), have a read of this (attached). Its quite a long read and reasonably complex but it consistently refers to "halting deadlifts" (what we call pulls to knees) and goes into quite detailed analysis of their function on muscle actions involved in sucessful deadlifting. It seems to be generally focussed on conventional pulling, but i would say it applies to sumo too - after all the upper body undergoes exactly the same stresses during sumo, just in a more upright position. There is some very interesting (if you are a total training science nerd) analysis of how the lats work in the DL and what their function is. I always dismissed the pulls to knees as just a wierd excerise for 'helping the start' of the pull and preferred defecit pulls for that purpose. But reading that article makes me think that if they are performed strictly and with the correct training outcome in mind, they could well be very very useful. What do you lot think? *article also here: library.crossfit.com/free/pdf/51-2006_AnalysisofDeadlift.pdf* Hey Guys just learned something about pulls to the knees from Hooper via Boris. I have misunderstood the exercise. It should be, pull to the knees, pause for 2 sec at the knees then, finish the lift. Repeat. Yes, they really suck but very effective.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2010 3:07:40 GMT -5
For those who dont like or dont rate the effectiveness of the pulls to knees which are so prevalent in Sheiko programming (me included), have a read of this (attached). Its quite a long read and reasonably complex but it consistently refers to "halting deadlifts" (what we call pulls to knees) and goes into quite detailed analysis of their function on muscle actions involved in sucessful deadlifting. It seems to be generally focussed on conventional pulling, but i would say it applies to sumo too - after all the upper body undergoes exactly the same stresses during sumo, just in a more upright position. There is some very interesting (if you are a total training science nerd) analysis of how the lats work in the DL and what their function is. I always dismissed the pulls to knees as just a wierd excerise for 'helping the start' of the pull and preferred defecit pulls for that purpose. But reading that article makes me think that if they are performed strictly and with the correct training outcome in mind, they could well be very very useful. What do you lot think? *article also here: library.crossfit.com/free/pdf/51-2006_AnalysisofDeadlift.pdf* Hey Guys just learned something about pulls to the knees from Hooper via Boris. I have misunderstood the exercise. It should be, pull to the knees, pause for 2 sec at the knees then, finish the lift. Repeat. Yes, they really suck but very effective. Excellent cant wait to do them.
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Post by benburgess on Jul 22, 2010 7:10:12 GMT -5
Dave - in the Sheiko book that you and eric got translated he lists quite a few different variations as Supplemental SPP excersises IIRC.
Pulls to knees with a pause and then finishing are certainly one but he also lists pulls to knees and back down, pulls to knees with two stops (one at knees and one at thighs) amongst other things.
When you say via Boris, did Wade contact him and that's what he told Wade he meant as the 'standard' pull to knees?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2010 17:44:17 GMT -5
Dave - in the Sheiko book that you and eric got translated he lists quite a few different variations as Supplemental SPP excersises IIRC. Pulls to knees with a pause and then finishing are certainly one but he also lists pulls to knees and back down, pulls to knees with two stops (one at knees and one at thighs) amongst other things. When you say via Boris, did Wade contact him and that's what he told Wade he meant as the 'standard' pull to knees? Good points Ben. I will continue doing Pulls to the knees and return to floor and Pulls to the knees and lockout.
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Post by benburgess on Jul 23, 2010 3:21:52 GMT -5
I've tried both kiwi and I'd say PTK then lockout is definately harder then returning the bar to the floor. If that's what Boris meant as the 'standard' PTK then fair enough. I would kind of expect though that a lower %age of your full rom pull would be used for PTK/lockout to elicit the same training effect than forthe PTK/back down.
Does that make sense? What I mean is that, in terms of stress on the body:
PTK/back down @55%x5x3 = PTK/lockout @50%x5x3
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Post by davebates on Jul 23, 2010 14:01:59 GMT -5
Dave - in the Sheiko book that you and eric got translated he lists quite a few different variations as Supplemental SPP excersises IIRC. Pulls to knees with a pause and then finishing are certainly one but he also lists pulls to knees and back down, pulls to knees with two stops (one at knees and one at thighs) amongst other things. When you say via Boris, did Wade contact him and that's what he told Wade he meant as the 'standard' pull to knees? Yes, it is the standard. He told him that we were doing the exercise wrong.
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Post by benburgess on Jul 25, 2010 11:54:44 GMT -5
Dave - in the Sheiko book that you and eric got translated he lists quite a few different variations as Supplemental SPP excersises IIRC. Pulls to knees with a pause and then finishing are certainly one but he also lists pulls to knees and back down, pulls to knees with two stops (one at knees and one at thighs) amongst other things. When you say via Boris, did Wade contact him and that's what he told Wade he meant as the 'standard' pull to knees? Yes, it is the standard. He told him that we were doing the exercise wrong.OK. The big man has spoken, thats good enough for me... I will be doing them as described from here on in. Thanks Dave.
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Post by joeldibattista on Jul 25, 2010 19:06:29 GMT -5
Wow Dave - "straight from the horses mouth".
ANY info Wade has from Boris would be greatly appreciated Dave.
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Post by oldbull on Jul 28, 2010 19:44:28 GMT -5
Dave - in the Sheiko book that you and eric got translated he lists quite a few different variations as Supplemental SPP excersises IIRC. Pulls to knees with a pause and then finishing are certainly one but he also lists pulls to knees and back down, pulls to knees with two stops (one at knees and one at thighs) amongst other things. When you say via Boris, did Wade contact him and that's what he told Wade he meant as the 'standard' pull to knees? Yes, it is the standard. He told him that we were doing the exercise wrong.Week 11 of 12 so they will go into the next cycle
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