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Post by benburgess on Jun 6, 2010 12:05:57 GMT -5
For those who dont like or dont rate the effectiveness of the pulls to knees which are so prevalent in Sheiko programming (me included), have a read of this (attached). Its quite a long read and reasonably complex but it consistently refers to "halting deadlifts" (what we call pulls to knees) and goes into quite detailed analysis of their function on muscle actions involved in sucessful deadlifting. It seems to be generally focussed on conventional pulling, but i would say it applies to sumo too - after all the upper body undergoes exactly the same stresses during sumo, just in a more upright position. There is some very interesting (if you are a total training science nerd) analysis of how the lats work in the DL and what their function is. I always dismissed the pulls to knees as just a wierd excerise for 'helping the start' of the pull and preferred defecit pulls for that purpose. But reading that article makes me think that if they are performed strictly and with the correct training outcome in mind, they could well be very very useful. What do you lot think? *article also here: library.crossfit.com/free/pdf/51-2006_AnalysisofDeadlift.pdf*
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2010 15:58:19 GMT -5
Ben, I really like Pulls to the knees. I like to pause at the knee for a solid 2 seconds before lowering again. I always do them raw(no belt) I pull sumo and they are beneficial in regards to maintaining 'core tightness' at around knee level which I feel is a point were the lift can get awkward with the bar getting around the knees to enable lockout. I also think they teach patience by way of not ripping the weight of the ground(which heaps of people do) because you have to stop half way up and if you are not in good position at the knee area your pause will be difficult.
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Post by michael on Jun 6, 2010 21:08:28 GMT -5
When I read this further I noticed a part that applies to my own unique deadlift. I do not use my legs at all even though I understand the reasoning behind it and it makes perfect sense, The bar hardly ever touches my shins and my hams and glutes start the movement with my low back. I'm sure you can appreciate how difficult it is to try to relearn a movement I have become rather successful at. To my knowledge I have never used leg drive and I have recently done a raw 600 pull in the 165's. I would love to know your opinion on the matter. Should I continue on my current path or try to reinvent my pull and focus on pulls to the knees and quad involvement? For those who dont like or dont rate the effectiveness of the pulls to knees which are so prevalent in Sheiko programming (me included), have a read of this (attached). Its quite a long read and reasonably complex but it consistently refers to "halting deadlifts" (what we call pulls to knees) and goes into quite detailed analysis of their function on muscle actions involved in sucessful deadlifting. It seems to be generally focussed on conventional pulling, but i would say it applies to sumo too - after all the upper body undergoes exactly the same stresses during sumo, just in a more upright position. There is some very interesting (if you are a total training science nerd) analysis of how the lats work in the DL and what their function is. I always dismissed the pulls to knees as just a wierd excerise for 'helping the start' of the pull and preferred defecit pulls for that purpose. But reading that article makes me think that if they are performed strictly and with the correct training outcome in mind, they could well be very very useful. What do you lot think? *article also here: library.crossfit.com/free/pdf/51-2006_AnalysisofDeadlift.pdf*
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Post by benburgess on Jun 7, 2010 16:59:13 GMT -5
When I read this further I noticed a part that applies to my own unique deadlift. I do not use my legs at all even though I understand the reasoning behind it and it makes perfect sense, The bar hardly ever touches my shins and my hams and glutes start the movement with my low back. I'm sure you can appreciate how difficult it is to try to relearn a movement I have become rather successful at. To my knowledge I have never used leg drive and I have recently done a raw 600 pull in the 165's. I would love to know your opinion on the matter. Should I continue on my current path or try to reinvent my pull and focus on pulls to the knees and quad involvement? Well my personal opinion is that you should stop banging on about your f*@ck1ng 600 raw deadlift at 165. I do not want to sound like a Powerlifting Watch anonymous posting keyboard warrior but damn, you literally mention how you are a "rather sucessful" deadlifter in every damn post. Yes, you have a pretty good raw pull. Not an earth-shatteringly-incredible-love-child-of-Ed-Coan-and-Andy-Bolton type of pull but a decent lift. What it has to do with the science of programming i do not know. Moving on, it is an interesting question. You probably have hamstrings and lower back musculature that's stronger than your quads eh? So i suppose the question is, "would changing your style to adopt biomechanically stronger positioning mean that you can lift more?"...i dont know. I mean the easy thing to say is "no in the short term but yes in the long term" but i think it is probably right in this case. Everyones levers are different but as discussed in the article, the more vertical the torso, the less leverage is placed on the low back. Because of the angles etc., a bent over stiff-leg style pull has to be an inherently weaker position than being more upright (becuase the weight arm, i.e. lever, is longer). Adopting a more upright stance (where you should be stronger from a levers point of view) has to mean your hips are lower and the quads are more involved. Even if you have a strong low back, surely the combined output of 2 legs (i.e. the quads) at least has the capacity to be stronger, right? I mean if you compare the size of the muscles of the low back with the quads, it stands to reason that they should be stronger. Having said that i would guess it could be one of them things that could take years to unlearn and get stronger the 'new' way...I suppose if your progress is flying as you are (?) then changing is unesscessary but if you are going no-where then investing in change might pay dividends eventually. I think i pull with my hips too high as well. Right now i am paying for it with a bulging disc and no deadlifting for a month. Maybe when i get back to it i might start listening to my own advice. The reason why i dont is that pulling low hips instantly makes me weaker and like every other PLer i want to smash the most weight at any one time
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Post by benburgess on Jun 7, 2010 17:06:34 GMT -5
Ben, I really like Pulls to the knees. I like to pause at the knee for a solid 2 seconds before lowering again. I always do them raw(no belt) I pull sumo and they are beneficial in regards to maintaining 'core tightness' at around knee level which I feel is a point were the lift can get awkward with the bar getting around the knees to enable lockout. I also think they teach patience by way of not ripping the weight of the ground(which heaps of people do) because you have to stop half way up and if you are not in good position at the knee area your pause will be difficult. Good call Kiwi...most people (me included) seem to cite them as the one thing they dont like about the Sheiko style deadlifting but personally i think my previous 'beef' with them was becasue I didnt appreciate the purpose of them and I didnt really do them properly - reading the article i get that the purpose is to train the initial extension of the quads (and therefore the 1st movement of the bar off the ground) whilst maintaning the angle of the hips. So the hips should never open up into extension through the movement, and the back should be tightly contracted isometrically. I see also from the diagrams etc that they strongly train the lats stabilsing function through the arms and scapulae. When i start pulling again and work these back in i will be focussing on the above points. I mean, they are obvious once you think about it, but you never really have the time or inclination to sit down and work out the biomechanical functions and training effects of partial deadlift movements do you. Not on a weekend anyway and these kind of sites are blocked at work
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Post by michael on Jun 7, 2010 21:44:50 GMT -5
Benburgess, I apologize for "banging" on my FN deadlift. The only reason I give my personal background in my posts is to provide what I think is useful information on my situation. If someone were replying to me with a similar post and did not indicate their current level I would almost assume they were a first time lifter. My goal when I post on this site is to supply what I think are relevant facts about myself that will help others to answer my question. If I were your "average", uninformed 165er pulling 450 that, to me, would make a world of difference in the type advice I would give. As it stands I will try to refrain from mentioning any weights I am using in the future as not to piss anybody off and try to give this forum another chance. When I read this further I noticed a part that applies to my own unique deadlift. I do not use my legs at all even though I understand the reasoning behind it and it makes perfect sense, The bar hardly ever touches my shins and my hams and glutes start the movement with my low back. I'm sure you can appreciate how difficult it is to try to relearn a movement I have become rather successful at. To my knowledge I have never used leg drive and I have recently done a raw 600 pull in the 165's. I would love to know your opinion on the matter. Should I continue on my current path or try to reinvent my pull and focus on pulls to the knees and quad involvement? Well my personal opinion is that you should stop banging on about your f*@ck1ng 600 raw deadlift at 165. I do not want to sound like a Powerlifting Watch anonymous posting keyboard warrior but damn, you literally mention how you are a "rather sucessful" deadlifter in every damn post. Yes, you have a pretty good raw pull. Not an earth-shatteringly-incredible-love-child-of-Ed-Coan-and-Andy-Bolton type of pull but a decent lift. What it has to do with the science of programming i do not know. Moving on, it is an interesting question. You probably have hamstrings and lower back musculature that's stronger than your quads eh? So i suppose the question is, "would changing your style to adopt biomechanically stronger positioning mean that you can lift more?"...i dont know. I mean the easy thing to say is "no in the short term but yes in the long term" but i think it is probably right in this case. Everyones levers are different but as discussed in the article, the more vertical the torso, the less leverage is placed on the low back. Because of the angles etc., a bent over stiff-leg style pull has to be an inherently weaker position than being more upright (becuase the weight arm, i.e. lever, is longer). Adopting a more upright stance (where you should be stronger from a levers point of view) has to mean your hips are lower and the quads are more involved. Even if you have a strong low back, surely the combined output of 2 legs (i.e. the quads) at least has the capacity to be stronger, right? I mean if you compare the size of the muscles of the low back with the quads, it stands to reason that they should be stronger. Having said that i would guess it could be one of them things that could take years to unlearn and get stronger the 'new' way...I suppose if your progress is flying as you are (?) then changing is unesscessary but if you are going no-where then investing in change might pay dividends eventually. I think i pull with my hips too high as well. Right now i am paying for it with a bulging disc and no deadlifting for a month. Maybe when i get back to it i might start listening to my own advice. The reason why i dont is that pulling low hips instantly makes me weaker and like every other PLer i want to smash the most weight at any one time
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2010 1:46:18 GMT -5
Benburgess, I apologize for "banging" on my FN deadlift. The only reason I give my personal background in my posts is to provide what I think is useful information on my situation. If someone were replying to me with a similar post and did not indicate their current level I would almost assume they were a first time lifter. My goal when I post on this site is to supply what I think are relevant facts about myself that will help others to answer my question. If I were your "average", uninformed 165er pulling 450 that, to me, would make a world of difference in the type advice I would give. As it stands I will try to refrain from mentioning any weights I am using in the future as not to piss anybody off and try to give this forum another chance. Well my personal opinion is that you should stop banging on about your f*@ck1ng 600 raw deadlift at 165. I do not want to sound like a Powerlifting Watch anonymous posting keyboard warrior but damn, you literally mention how you are a "rather sucessful" deadlifter in every damn post. Yes, you have a pretty good raw pull. Not an earth-shatteringly-incredible-love-child-of-Ed-Coan-and-Andy-Bolton type of pull but a decent lift. What it has to do with the science of programming i do not know. Moving on, it is an interesting question. You probably have hamstrings and lower back musculature that's stronger than your quads eh? So i suppose the question is, "would changing your style to adopt biomechanically stronger positioning mean that you can lift more?"...i dont know. I mean the easy thing to say is "no in the short term but yes in the long term" but i think it is probably right in this case. Everyones levers are different but as discussed in the article, the more vertical the torso, the less leverage is placed on the low back. Because of the angles etc., a bent over stiff-leg style pull has to be an inherently weaker position than being more upright (becuase the weight arm, i.e. lever, is longer). Adopting a more upright stance (where you should be stronger from a levers point of view) has to mean your hips are lower and the quads are more involved. Even if you have a strong low back, surely the combined output of 2 legs (i.e. the quads) at least has the capacity to be stronger, right? I mean if you compare the size of the muscles of the low back with the quads, it stands to reason that they should be stronger. Having said that i would guess it could be one of them things that could take years to unlearn and get stronger the 'new' way...I suppose if your progress is flying as you are (?) then changing is unesscessary but if you are going no-where then investing in change might pay dividends eventually. I think i pull with my hips too high as well. Right now i am paying for it with a bulging disc and no deadlifting for a month. Maybe when i get back to it i might start listening to my own advice. The reason why i dont is that pulling low hips instantly makes me weaker and like every other PLer i want to smash the most weight at any one time Michael, I understand where Ben is coming from here as in a previous post "Deadlifting" we did discuss your pull and your unusual technique that has allowed you to pull a massive Deadlift. The post was about another lifters vid and what we thought he could do to improve his technique. I think Deadlift from to the knees is something you just dont want to do as you said yourself you dont use legs in the deadlift and you don't want to change your technique in case you go backwards which is fair enough.
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Post by benburgess on Jun 8, 2010 2:26:12 GMT -5
Michael I am a pretty straight talking guy but most things are said with a grin on my face...the biomechanics of a 300lb pull and a 800lb pull are largely the same as far as I know but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater - what do you think of the discussion of levers & biomechanics? That is the issue at hand. Benburgess, I apologize for "banging" on my FN deadlift. The only reason I give my personal background in my posts is to provide what I think is useful information on my situation. If someone were replying to me with a similar post and did not indicate their current level I would almost assume they were a first time lifter. My goal when I post on this site is to supply what I think are relevant facts about myself that will help others to answer my question. If I were your "average", uninformed 165er pulling 450 that, to me, would make a world of difference in the type advice I would give. As it stands I will try to refrain from mentioning any weights I am using in the future as not to piss anybody off and try to give this forum another chance. Well my personal opinion is that you should stop banging on about your f*@ck1ng 600 raw deadlift at 165. I do not want to sound like a Powerlifting Watch anonymous posting keyboard warrior but damn, you literally mention how you are a "rather sucessful" deadlifter in every damn post. Yes, you have a pretty good raw pull. Not an earth-shatteringly-incredible-love-child-of-Ed-Coan-and-Andy-Bolton type of pull but a decent lift. What it has to do with the science of programming i do not know. Moving on, it is an interesting question. You probably have hamstrings and lower back musculature that's stronger than your quads eh? So i suppose the question is, "would changing your style to adopt biomechanically stronger positioning mean that you can lift more?"...i dont know. I mean the easy thing to say is "no in the short term but yes in the long term" but i think it is probably right in this case. Everyones levers are different but as discussed in the article, the more vertical the torso, the less leverage is placed on the low back. Because of the angles etc., a bent over stiff-leg style pull has to be an inherently weaker position than being more upright (becuase the weight arm, i.e. lever, is longer). Adopting a more upright stance (where you should be stronger from a levers point of view) has to mean your hips are lower and the quads are more involved. Even if you have a strong low back, surely the combined output of 2 legs (i.e. the quads) at least has the capacity to be stronger, right? I mean if you compare the size of the muscles of the low back with the quads, it stands to reason that they should be stronger. Having said that i would guess it could be one of them things that could take years to unlearn and get stronger the 'new' way...I suppose if your progress is flying as you are (?) then changing is unesscessary but if you are going no-where then investing in change might pay dividends eventually. I think i pull with my hips too high as well. Right now i am paying for it with a bulging disc and no deadlifting for a month. Maybe when i get back to it i might start listening to my own advice. The reason why i dont is that pulling low hips instantly makes me weaker and like every other PLer i want to smash the most weight at any one time
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Post by joeldibattista on Jun 8, 2010 2:32:07 GMT -5
Michael I am a pretty straight talking guy but most things are said with a grin on my face...the biomechanics of a 300lb pull and a 800lb pull are largely the same as far as I know but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater - what do you think of the discussion of levers & biomechanics? That is the issue at hand. Are you posting on the sheiko forum in the morning before you go to work???!!!
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Post by benburgess on Jun 8, 2010 7:24:47 GMT -5
Michael I am a pretty straight talking guy but most things are said with a grin on my face...the biomechanics of a 300lb pull and a 800lb pull are largely the same as far as I know but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater - what do you think of the discussion of levers & biomechanics? That is the issue at hand. Are you posting on the sheiko forum in the morning before you go to work???!!! Na-ahh girlfriend. At work ont iPhone innit blud.
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Post by davebates on Jun 8, 2010 9:06:27 GMT -5
For those who dont like or dont rate the effectiveness of the pulls to knees which are so prevalent in Sheiko programming (me included), have a read of this (attached). Its quite a long read and reasonably complex but it consistently refers to "halting deadlifts" (what we call pulls to knees) and goes into quite detailed analysis of their function on muscle actions involved in sucessful deadlifting. It seems to be generally focussed on conventional pulling, but i would say it applies to sumo too - after all the upper body undergoes exactly the same stresses during sumo, just in a more upright position. There is some very interesting (if you are a total training science nerd) analysis of how the lats work in the DL and what their function is. I always dismissed the pulls to knees as just a wierd excerise for 'helping the start' of the pull and preferred defecit pulls for that purpose. But reading that article makes me think that if they are performed strictly and with the correct training outcome in mind, they could well be very very useful. What do you lot think? *article also here: library.crossfit.com/free/pdf/51-2006_AnalysisofDeadlift.pdf* A student of the author has been working with Eric for sometime on his biomechanics of the deadlift. Actually the author has seen video of Eric's deadlifts too. Their is something to be said for it. It's good stuff. The biggest thing we have found is the setup from the start is everything!
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Post by benburgess on Jun 8, 2010 13:00:14 GMT -5
Hey dave,
Not seen you on here for a while bud!
Yes i think i know of the student which you are referring to. Is Eric planning on changing things up, form-wise?
What do you think about the point in debate here - do you think that, eventually, all conventional pullers would be stronger by getting their hips lower, spines more upright and using their quads more?
Or do you think that some peoples levers make them genetically undisposed to this style?
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Post by michael on Jun 8, 2010 13:03:26 GMT -5
Well I've decided to try pulls to the knees one more time. I do agree with the article and I have always felt that properly executed leg drive is the superior way to pull. The problem is that I have benn pulling so long without it that trying to use my legs to break the floor seems beyond awkward. It doesnt help that my low back seems to have picked up the slack and done more than its fair share to give me an explosive start. I am going to attempt to do them with light weight a few times and then after my next meet in July I'll try to hit them every week while simultaneously working my reg deads the usual way. I am paying special attention to keeping the bar in contact with my shins as I never do this pulling siff leg as I do. The only question I have is while performing pulls to the knees is it best to think of staying back, breaking the floor with leg drive THEN engaging the low back? It may sound funny but I am used to thinking all back and not arching my back at all. When I tried them today it seems as though my long arms dont allow for my legs to do much. Any thoughts?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2010 23:09:33 GMT -5
Well I've decided to try pulls to the knees one more time. I do agree with the article and I have always felt that properly executed leg drive is the superior way to pull. The problem is that I have benn pulling so long without it that trying to use my legs to break the floor seems beyond awkward. It doesnt help that my low back seems to have picked up the slack and done more than its fair share to give me an explosive start. I am going to attempt to do them with light weight a few times and then after my next meet in July I'll try to hit them every week while simultaneously working my reg deads the usual way. I am paying special attention to keeping the bar in contact with my shins as I never do this pulling siff leg as I do. The only question I have is while performing pulls to the knees is it best to think of staying back, breaking the floor with leg drive THEN engaging the low back? It may sound funny but I am used to thinking all back and not arching my back at all. When I tried them today it seems as though my long arms dont allow for my legs to do much. Any thoughts? Good on you for giving them a go Mike. As far as what to feel goes. I think you should aim to bring your hips up at the same time as the bar so to keep your legs in the lift so to speak. Good luck.
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Post by davebates on Jun 9, 2010 9:37:30 GMT -5
Hey dave, Not seen you on here for a while bud! Life has been keeping me busy friend.. Yes i think i know of the student which you are referring to. Is Eric planning on changing things up, form-wise? The changes are very small, you would not notice unless you watch closely.
What do you think about the point in debate here - do you think that, eventually, all conventional pullers would be stronger by getting their hips lower, spines more upright and using their quads more? Hmmm tough question, there is a point on diminished returns by doing it like that. Some of the best pullers I know keep their hips high. So i'm not really sure to be honest with you.
Or do you think that some peoples levers make them genetically undisposed to this style? I think it's really an individual thing. It's a tough call. Everybody is different.
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Post by benburgess on Jun 9, 2010 14:42:24 GMT -5
The only question I have is while performing pulls to the knees is it best to think of staying back, breaking the floor with leg drive THEN engaging the low back? It may sound funny but I am used to thinking all back and not arching my back at all. When I tried them today it seems as though my long arms dont allow for my legs to do much. Any thoughts? From the article i got that the back should not really be doing anything at all apart from holding the spine isometrically in position. The key to the pulls to knees as i understand it is to maintain a constant angle at the hip joint (so there is no hip extension at all) throughout so that all the work is being done by knee extension, i.e. the quads are powering the bar up and the rest of the hips and low back just work isometrically to lock the torso into position. So bascially the movement should be like a narrow stance quad-dominant squat but with the torso held tight in a bent over position.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2010 19:59:13 GMT -5
Hey Michael How are you finding Pulls to the Knees with a pause?
I still use them and find they strenghten your whole back. Have also being doing reverse band DL to over load the top off the lift but not over doing it too much so I don't stuff the cycle up(burn out)
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Post by michael on Jul 3, 2010 6:56:34 GMT -5
I haven't been using them with my meet in 2 weeks. It is difficult to implement them as they fatigue my back more than most I think. I am starting to think that the extreme burning in my low back isn't from my arthritic L5 but it just may be that I have a low back that is composed primarily of fast twitch fibers. This would explain my very limited endurance and my ability to pull max weights stiff legged and explosive off the floor. Dave said implied that the fatigue I feel with pulls to the knees could be a good thing but for me it seems it takes too much of a toll and affects my full range dead and squat negatively. I ended up with sciatic pain in my glute area which is what seems to always happen when my back "redlines". I may try again next block but I am entertaining the notion of trap bar deads with all legs drive. I like how my legs feel weak with just 185lbs and my back isnt as affected. I'm thinking I can slowly bring my legs drive up if I use these in place of pull to knees and lunges from timw to time. I'll keep you posted.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2010 17:47:48 GMT -5
Sounds like you have things sorted Michael. Good luck with your upcoming meet. What competition is it? IPF!
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Post by michael on Jul 3, 2010 19:24:14 GMT -5
I have WNPF nationals on July 18th. After that I am hoping to make it to my first world meet in November.
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